Masters With Ox? What Is The Latest Word?

[J_Ding]

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that it was impossible to make...once you've got it, you've got it. Witness the similarity of Akro oxblood over many types of marbles. But it ain't at first, like making boxed caked either or as economical....unless I've been mis-informed.

[lstmmrbls]

I do not believe David makes Oxblood glass. He does throw certain glass(gfurnaceoldstone works sometimes) into the tank and Oxblood comes out. Making Oxblood glass is not easy and Brian is the only marble person I know that has (made) it from scratch. It is possible David has recently done some work with Oxblood I know nothing about? And when I see Oxblood with blue or Aqua glass I immediately think "accidental"Goldstone has been around for some time. It is certainly possible some may have found its way into any companies tanks?? so maybe accidentally on purpose?

[1DanS]

and most people wouldn't deny that some of those nice early German ground-pontil marbles have oxblood too. I have one myself. Just one, though sigh.

[ann]

Niiice one Dan!

[ann]

I do not believe David makes Oxblood glass . . . It is possible David has recently done some work with Oxblood I know nothing about? And when I see Oxblood with blue or Aqua glass I immediately think "accidental"Goldstone has been around for some time. It is certainly possible some may have found its way into any companies tanks?? so maybe accidentally on purpose?

Guess you haven't seen much of several David-era JABO runs that included deliberately-made oxblood. So I guess there must be some you don't know anything about. I can't imagine! You might want to read the long oxblood discussion in one of Steve Sturtz' JABO books. If you can be impartial. Some good information there.

Don't think gold aventurine glass (goldstone) "found its way into" anything, given that in the first half of the 20th century it mostly had to be imported from Italy and therefore wasn't thrown around a lot with little regard to what it fell into. But of course I could be wrong. But then there's that nice chunk of gold aventurine Ron found at one of the Alley sites. Guess it must have just fallen off of a truck there sometime in the '30s or '40s.

I wouldn't doubt that the aqua/green-glass-oxblood pairing was initially accidental, but I don't see how you can say it was never deliberate -- or that interested companies, like Alley, didn't attempt to recreate the effect after it was noticed. Especially when you look at some of the many, many examples of aqua/green & oxblood marbles produced . . .

Just sayin.'

[lstmmrbls]

I have samples of every one of Davids early runs And he has sent me many marbles with Oxblood in them, I have the special boxes with samples of every run from 2008 and also many boxes he sent me of nice samples especially with Oxblood. As I stated earlier I do not believe he ever made any Oxblood glass. He did put certain glass into the tank that resulted in Oxblood but I do not believe he ever mixed sand and chemicals to make Oxblood glass. He has added some chemicals etc to already made and melted glass with various results but really do not think he made Oxblood glass. Again I may be wrong but I do not think so. If you absolutely know differently let me Know

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Well Ive seen oxblood glass go into a tank of molten glass.but Ive never seen it come out as oxblood.

[lstmmrbls]

I sure can agree with that. But i have seen goldstone go into a tank and come out oxblood

[Ima_ddicted]

Patry's marble was not a Master IMHO. But it sure as heck is a looker!

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

So,does that mean oxblood glass was made in the tank,at jabo?

[lstmmrbls]

Maybe to some but not to me. And if you want to think so, did the tank make it or whomever threw it in(LOL)

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Oh,I see now!,,,,the oxblood that came out of the tank at Jabo,wasnt oxblood glass!

It was right in front of me and couldnt see it!

I didnt fry the bacon,,the frying pan did it!------NOW THAT IS FUNNY RIGHT THERE!

[Steph]

I see two distinctions:

(1) intentional versus accidental

And among the intentional ways to get it:

(2) oxblood from batch versus oxblood from aventurine

Dave's oxblood has been intentional, albeit not from batch.

What other marble makes would have made it intentionally? It's tantalizing to think Alley might have done it knowingly.

[Shamrock Marbles]

Here's a question:

When MFC made oxblood, did they mix the ingredients, cook, then gather directly?

Or

When MFC made oxblood, did they mix the ingredients, cook, ladle and dump glass to cool. Only to heat up Oxblood cullet again in a monkey pot from which they gathered?

For Akro, did they just add Oxblood Cullet to their color tanks?

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[lstmmrbls]

Griff, its Oxblood glass no one is disputing that. I thought I was clear when I stated I did not believe he mixed sand and chemicals to make it. So I don't consider what he did "making Oxblood glass", if that were the case, anyone that put goldstone in the crucibles made oxblood glass, Hey I made Oxblood glass, "NOT"!! If you want to say Dave made Oxblood glass go right ahead. Why slam on me for not thinking that that is "making" oxblood glass

As for Akro I am making a big assumption that their Oxblood was all batch. They used separate furnaces for different glass colors so is it possible they streamed Oxblood in from separate tanks. I do know Akro Oxblood cullet is very difficult to remelt and have it retain the Oxblood characteristics, although some have succeeded to a small degree,

I do not think MFC used remelted Oxblood cullet, another assumption. I do not think remelting Oxblood glass is mentioned in Cohills book.

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Yeah Galen,that was some slam I did on you.

Get yourself a sence of humor.

You shouldnt act like your so sensative when you think nothing of writing something like this,,,,,

" If you want to say Dave made Oxblood glass go right ahead."

See,this is the offensive stuff.I dont need your permission to say anything.You dont need to make it sound like anyone needs your permission to say anything,EVER.

I mean realy,what differance does it make,if the oxblood was made in a tank or in another tank and then added to a tank?

Its not like the differance between an apple pie that was made from scratch,and one that was store bought.

At the end of the day,accidental oxblood,intentional oxblood,oxblood glass or oxblood,all have 1 thing in commen,,,THE OXBLOOD!

It does seem strange to me you would take such a strong position,being that you assume(by your own words) the ways "oxblood glass" was made at akro and mfc.

[lstmmrbls]

Actually Griff there was no assumption on my part on how Akro or MFC made Oxblood glass, My assumption was how the glass got added to certain marbles. And Sorry Griff, I did not imagine you would find offense in that sentence, maybe we are both sensitive guys, , I will try to post as you would wish me to from now on. Maybe I can send them to you first to proof read? If you took my other sentence as an attempt to give you permission please forgive me. I will certainly never give you permission for anything., ever (LOL) Galen- the sensitive guy

[Steph]

Please everyone stop with the gotchas and poking.

We all understand what the other is talking about.

Let's keep it about the subject and not the people.

Pretty please.

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Yeah,I dont have time to proof read you post Galen.

Maybe Steph will help you out?

I like Masters with oxblood,,,,,,pretty sure its glass too!

[lstmmrbls]

Okie dokie.

[ann]

It's about making marbles that have oxblood showing in the final product, as far as I'm concerned.

So we know for sure MFC and Akro made their own oxblood cullet. Which, when added to their tank glass during a run may or may not have produced oxblood in the marbles themselves, depending on the vagaries of both the stuff and the process (reduction atmosphere, etc.)

So maybe other companies bought oxblood cullet and threw it in their tanks with the same results. So?

Same with aventurine, 'cause it's the same stuff. So?

So sometimes marble makers got oxblood by accident. So?

Why do you think aventurine is called aventurine? "Cause one day one particular Venetian glassmaker accidentally produced it. Basically, "by adventure," in Italian. His family held exclusive rights (sort of like a patent) to aventurine for years and years. Those German guys who made "lutz" marbles bought their aventurine from that family. They didn't make it themselves. Does that bother you? It's interesting, I like knowing it. But it doesn't bother me. Or make me like the marbles a little less.

The question that's ultimately the most significant for me is "does the marble have oxblood in/on it?"

I think a lot of collectors, especially new ones, feel the same.

[ann]

Thought this might be a reasonable place to add this, for those who are interested. It's from JABO: A Classic, Sturtz & Johnson, and is a quote from Brian Graham. I think it's a nice, clear explanation -- I know it helped me when I was first trying to really understand the oxblood thing. Belated thanks, Brian!

"All you need to know to understand oxblood: CU¹¹ > Cu¹ > Cu.

"It's pure chemistry. It is a redox reaction. When you strip away the oxygen from copper oxide, you end up with an atom of copper. These copper atoms come together in the glass network to form individually suspended copper atoms and groups of connected atoms in the form of crystals.

"At the very start of this reaction, when the right amount of individual copper atoms are suspended in the glass, you make 'copper ruby' or a fine transparent red. If the copper crystals are small, you have oxblood. If the copper crystals grow larger, you end up with 'goldstone' [aventurine] or what marble collectors call 'lutz' glass. With the oxygen still bound to the copper, the colors produced are blues and greens.

"Redox can be achieved through adjustments in furnace atmosphere or through additions to the glass batch -- generally both methods were employed. Traditional redox additions for glass batches include iron oxide, tin oxide (helps keep certain metals in solution in glass), or forms of carbon, including sugar, coal dust, or sawdust.

"Sometimes a marble maker or glassworker would remelt copper ruby glass and it spoils and turns livery. The copper ruby color is quite fugitive in nature and is hard to hold in a glass melt. The glass reacts with the atmosphere and the redox reaction starts to reverse itself . . .

" . . . By the mid-to-late 1920s, reds were more easily produced with selenium and cadmium. The more difficult to melt copper-based reds just seemed to fall out of favor."

[mon]

"At the very start of this reaction, when the right amount of individual copper atoms are suspended in the glass, you make 'copper ruby' or a fine transparent red.

SO, let me ask in the nicest way I know.....if MFC was making oxblood, would it be so hard to believe that copper ruby could have been made by accident and was a bit tricky for mf to control and was dropped from his selection? After, of course, many transparent red marbles were made and sold?

[ann]

SO, let me ask in the nicest way I know.....if MFC was making oxblood, would it be so hard to believe that copper ruby could have been made by accident and was a bit to tricky for mf to control and was dropped from his selection? After, of course, many transparent red marbles were made and sold?

Oh boy.

Not too hard for me to believe they reached transparent copper ruby accidentally before achieving the oxblood they were apparently aiming for.

Harder for me to believe "many transparent red marbles were made and sold." And then dropped from the list because it was too tricky to control. I think it was more likely the other way around -- if it was tricky to control MFC would never have added transparent copper ruby to the regular production of MFC. Especially if it was oxblood they were interested in.

I'll have to go back to Hellmers' batch book. Keeping in mind that the early and golden age marble makers didn't call oxblood oxblood. I think, but don't know for sure, that Pelt used selenium for their early Cerise marbles, which were hand-gathered. Maybe confirmation (or denial) of that will magically appear here . . .

[mon]

Well I forget the number of marbles mf himself could make in one day but it was a lot, per the book!! Please, no wazoo questions! Lol. But in any upstart business, I think if they were round, they were sold!