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Masters With Ox? What Is The Latest Word?


Steph
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Those examples, that don't look classically like MF or Akro oxblood sure are a puzzle to me (not the one above, btw). I've got some too from other manufacturers that might be oxblood, but fall into that nether-world of 'maybe ox or maybe not.' I have Masters that would be close but I can't tell, but they wouldn't be a classic match to the oxbloods either, and I think here is the challenge. Ox or not (and not referring to other kinds of red either...I'm speaking of that dark, optically flat, red color only).

My understanding is that the formulations for oxblood are very touchy but essentially revolve around a re-dox reaction between copper and iron atoms. This is a complex (for glass making) chemical oxidation-reduction reaction, but I currently remain unclear what is going on, as different readings from different sources are conflicting (I've red multiple accounts and interpretations)...I'm not, at this time, sure which is the current accurate thinking on this. What is clear, is that this is a very touchy reaction: depending on heat, other additives of the glass, presence or absence of levels of oxygen and the length of time the glass is in flux, production of oxblood is a very touchy thing indeed. If stopped at the wrong time in the melt, or the components of the glass, or who know what else, the glass may not turn out classically oxblood.

So, I think the question has always been for me...is oxblood an actual appearance of the glass or the intent of the glass maker? On those 'fence sitting' examples: Was this intended and it just didn't entirely make it to the ox state? Or it only appears to be oxblood. I've always taken MF and Akro to be, classically, the best of oxblood makers (in the manufacturing age). But we've all seen those, hmmm, "is this oxblood?" kinds of examples too...when they clearly don't show the banding and dark ribbons and red striations of coagulated looking blood. I really don't know what to think. What is clear to me is that a glass maker just doesn't simple say, hmmm, "let's make some ox today!," without considering the fickle nature of this stuff; and no doubt, the cost of trying to make it, and then maybe fail, was always a consideration, especially later on. From my reading, this can be very fussy stuff indeed. (incidentally, I've read that ox can get more copper green when the cook/formulation doesn't work right...and I have a really really beat up, probably MF that has ox and tonnes of copper green glass regions and less ox...totally weird and in very very very bad condition...).

Sorry about the on and on...I like chemistry! :D John

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I prefer to keep it simple,but the science behind it is interesting.

For me,if it looks like a duck,,,ya know.

If I were to take it to an atomic level,the first thing I would have to do is determine,"what is" oxblood?

What formula produced the "official" oxblood,?Akro,Alley,Master,Christensen,Vitro,Marble King,Peltier,Jabo Sammy's,D.A.S.or any marble company that made an "oxblood".

Id be willing to bet,that none are identical on the atomic level.Couple molecules here,a couple there,,,OOPS,you have 9 too many molecules,your disqualified from being "official"oxblood!

For me,just like ducks,there are many species of oxblood,,,,Both can produce slobbers!

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Yep. Ducks are ducks in biology too..but biologists argue about a few weird, maybe ducks, so...you know, some square pegs for round holes. I'd agree, most of those formulations on the atomic level are different for different manufacturers. Wasn't aware that CAC had oxblood, or near oxblood...is this so?

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I thought taste was most important when dealing with Ducks. And corn and rice feeding pintails are one of my favorites, and I see no reason that a Master would not show up with accidental Oxblood, but I do not believe Master made Oxblood glass for marbles.

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Going back to Henry Hellmers' batch book, Akro had seven formulas for what we call oxblood, all stolen from M. F. Christensen and brought to Akro by Horace C. Hill. Six have 6 ingredients, beginning with sand, and the other 5 (soda, limestone, litharge, red iron oxide, and brass dust) vary a little by amounts from formula to formula. Some have Hellmers' notations like "good color," "best so far," or "red glass but metal specked."

The 7th formula has 9 ingredients, adding zinc oxide, red copper oxide, and borax. The notation is "best made and last under Hill."

But as has been suggested up there ^^^ and elsewhere, you don't have to be trying to make oxblood to get it. And conversely, you can try to make it and fail.

You can stumble into oxblood using cupric (copper) oxide, among other things. And out of it any number of ways. A kind of "Goldilocks" (just right) color.

It's definitely a little tricky.

Personally, I guess I think of MFC and Akro as the "classic" oxbloods, but I don't think of them as the only "real" ones. After all, MFC bought its formulas from J. H. Leighton, and most people wouldn't deny that some of those nice early German ground-pontil marbles have oxblood too. I have one myself. Just one, though sigh.

Alley & others either had it or had something very like it, perhaps accidentally at first and then later by design, with varying degrees of success. I have a couple of Pelts that have it.

At any rate, I think it's oxblood whether intentional or accidental, and there are more ways then one to make it. JMO.

post-2163-0-44297600-1447893376_thumb.jp

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. . . this can be very fussy stuff indeed. (incidentally, I've read that ox can get more copper green when the cook/formulation doesn't work right...and I have a really really beat up, probably MF that has ox and tonnes of copper green glass regions and less ox...totally weird and in very very very bad condition...).

Sure that's not a moss agate?

post-2163-0-89436300-1447879445_thumb.jp

post-2163-0-40145100-1447879550_thumb.jp

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Gets up off the floor after fainting.... :blink: Oh my! It doesn't really match that one! I'll try to see if I can get a passable picture and post it soon....it is weird...actually is brick, dark mossy green and purple glass...totally bizarre...and I warn you, ugly hammered...this marble saw action!

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Someone posted that the oxblood was not intentional. I think it was. I do believe they knew how to make it happen. David McCullough can make oxblood in the new marbles anytime we ask for it. He's known how for a number of years.

Yep. And Brian Graham.

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