General Question

[lstmmrbls]

It is the thought of a few folks that large amounts of marbles and cullet from one company have been found at another companies site. If this is so what would keep anyone from assuming that there were marbles from many companies dumped at other companies sites. Making Identification of many marbles null and void just because they were found at a certain site. (personally I do not believe this happened but I do know a few characters that have salted sites with marbles from other companies. Lets hear some thoughts.

[moremarbles4me]

I could see some/few marbles from one company being found at another companies site, they did buy back and forth. But cullet.....I wouldn't think so.

[1313]

i know a particular salt mine in cambridge......some here might be able to comment further ;0)

[ann]

My thoughts run alongside yours on this one, Galen -- It would not surprise me to find out that some of the companies may have shared dumpsites, but I don't think they shared cullet (except when more than one company bought "basic" glass like Pond's cold cream jars, for example). And I cannot really imagine a scenario (although several have been presented here and elsewhere) where one company would purchase and then use marble rejects from another company to make their own marbles. It just isn't feasible. And although some companies bought colored glasses from Fenton and Cambridge Glass, they also made their own colors. Akro's colors were entirely self-generated.

And although this may raise another controversial topic (sorry, but it really should at least be mentioned in any discussion of this topic), I can't give a lot of weight to the results of "digs," no matter who does them. Archaeological investigations yes. Digs, no. Sorry.

[lstmmrbls]

One problem I have with dug marbles is it is too often assumed that because a certain type marble is found in the digs it is assumed that they also were in general circulation. Just not true. Many runs and types were dumped and never sold.

[wvrons]

I do not post a lot like I did in the past. Because I do not have extra time to try and change peoples thoughts when they are already fixed. I do not want to or have time to argue over anything about marbles. Find the best information and all you can,then you decide. But things may change tomorrow if you are open to it ? I have posted much of this many times before. I have dug marbles since about 1996 or 1997 up until a few weeks ago. I have dug marbles at every machine made marble company site in WV except two. Some companies had more than one location. I currently have probably 12 to 20 five gallon buckets of dirty marbles from at least six or eight different sites. I have helped dig 25-35 gallons of marbles per day. I have dug marbles alongside or 75-100 different people. So I feel that I have some experience with digging marbles. But people who have done it once,at one site or never done it at all,have all the answers about dug marbles. Each and every site has its own story and each one is different. I can give the reasons but it is a lot of post or a book and much I have already posted for years. No I am not doing any book. Ask Mike Johnson if he would ever do a book again ? I am sure each site had mint marbles discarded as well as rejects. Again each site has different reasons. Some marbles were dumped shortly after being made and some were dumped years after the company ceased operations. One fact is that marble companies did buy marbles and cullet from each other. As with a lot of things around marbles it comes down to numbers or percentage. I was digging beside a woman digging at Vitro. She was about four feet from the building and three feet deep. She pulled out a handmade latticinio marble and asked what it was ? Of course just because it was dug at Vitro did not mean that latticinio marbles were made there. Every marble dug at each site does not prove it was made there. The companies did not use other companies dump sites,unless they were located at the same location. Most of these companies had to much distance between them to use the same dump site. Remember most of this was during 1930 to 1950,some in the 1960's. Most all the places where marbles were dumped,was very close to the production or warehouse building. They did not spend a lot of time effort or expense in getting them out of their way,they couldn't. Another fact is that there were marbles dumped by different companies that never did get into circulation. Again for different reasons. Sellers now days call them experimental. Some may have been but most were not experiments. I do not know exactly how each company made all their marbles. Some were made from raw ingredients in the early years and most were made from cullet. Akro's colors entirely self-generated. Why were good amounts of different glass companies cullet found all over the Akro site? Vitrolite was a major source of cullet for coloring marbles. I have found plenty of Vitrolite at every site which I have dug including Akro. The marble digging has probably solved as many questions or changed marble thoughts over the past ten years as much as any other source. Ask book author Mike Johnson where the Vitro cullet pile was located at Ravenswood Novelty ? I still have the diagram he gave me of where it was located. Yes I did dig about six Vitro cat eyes at Ravenswood. But I never said they were made at Vitro,thats crazy. I have dug Davis marbles at Cairo Novelty. The Davis marbles are different from Cairo in pattern,colors,base glass,certain Davis glow and similar Cairo's do not,etc. They were family related as with many of these company owners. According to the owners if they had problems or was short and needed marbles,they got them from someone nearby in Ritchie county,usually family relation. The Davis site is one place I never seen any other companies marbles. But it was a very small operation and short time. Maybe if we could have Archaeological investigations at marble company sites,we would have all the questions answered. I don't believe that either. But without that I will believe my eyes and what the past owners and workers have told me. Sorry but I will give some weight to the marble digs until I have something better. If there is something better I will be listening. Even hearsay,rumors,old wives tales,old wrong info in marble books,whatever,then I can decide. How many marbles have been identified from being dug? How many marbles would we have never seen or knew were made if not because of marble digs? For me marble digs who ever does it ? Is just another tool in the research of marble history. You have to go with the numbers and some common sense,until more proof becomes available. Most marble identifications come from different traits and sources not just a dig alone. Sometimes a dig will begin a identification with other items to help confirm it with time.

It is not thoughts of a few people that good amounts of marbles and or cullet from one company can end up at another different company site. It is the truth. I think several of us know what you are digging at ! I will change my mind if needed with new info,show me. I have done it many times before and expect to do it in the future.

[mibcapper]

I do not post a lot like I did in the past. Because I do not have extra time to try and change peoples thoughts when they are already fixed. I do not want to or have time to argue over anything about marbles. Find the best information and all you can,then you decide. But things may change tomorrow if you are open to it ? I have posted much of this many times before. I have dug marbles since about 1996 or 1997 up until a few weeks ago. I have dug marbles at every machine made marble company site in WV except two. Some companies had more than one location. I currently have probably 12 to 20 five gallon buckets of dirty marbles from at least six or eight different sites. I have helped dig 25-35 gallons of marbles per day. I have dug marbles alongside or 75-100 different people. So I feel that I have some experience with digging marbles. But people who have done it once,at one site or never done it at all,have all the answers about dug marbles. Each and every site has its own story and each one is different. I can give the reasons but it is a lot of post or a book and much I have already posted for years. No I am not doing any book. Ask Mike Johnson if he would ever do a book again ? I am sure each site had mint marbles discarded as well as rejects. Again each site has different reasons. Some marbles were dumped shortly after being made and some were dumped years after the company ceased operations. One fact is that marble companies did buy marbles and cullet from each other. As with a lot of things around marbles it comes down to numbers or percentage. I was digging beside a woman digging at Vitro. She was about four feet from the building and three feet deep. She pulled out a handmade latticinio marble and asked what it was ? Of course just because it was dug at Vitro did not mean that latticinio marbles were made there. Every marble dug at each site does not prove it was made there. The companies did not use other companies dump sites,unless they were located at the same location. Most of these companies had to much distance between them to use the same dump site. Remember most of this was during 1930 to 1950,some in the 1960's. Most all the places where marbles were dumped,was very close to the production or warehouse building. They did not spend a lot of time effort or expense in getting them out of their way,they couldn't. Another fact is that there were marbles dumped by different companies that never did get into circulation. Again for different reasons. Sellers now days call them experimental. Some may have been but most were not experiments. I do not know exactly how each company made all their marbles. Some were made from raw ingredients in the early years and most were made from cullet. Akro's colors entirely self-generated. Why were good amounts of different glass companies cullet found all over the Akro site? Vitrolite was a major source of cullet for coloring marbles. I have found plenty of Vitrolite at every site which I have dug including Akro. The marble digging has probably solved as many questions or changed marble thoughts over the past ten years as much as any other source. Ask book author Mike Johnson where the Vitro cullet pile was located at Ravenswood Novelty ? I still have the diagram he gave me of where it was located. Yes I did dig about six Vitro cat eyes at Ravenswood. But I never said they were made at Vitro,thats crazy. I have dug Davis marbles at Cairo Novelty. The Davis marbles are different from Cairo in pattern,colors,base glass,certain Davis glow and similar Cairo's do not,etc. They were family related as with many of these company owners. According to the owners if they had problems or was short and needed marbles,they got them from someone nearby in Ritchie county,usually family relation. The Davis site is one place I never seen any other companies marbles. But it was a very small operation and short time. Maybe if we could have Archaeological investigations at marble company sites,we would have all the questions answered. I don't believe that either. But without that I will believe my eyes and what the past owners and workers have told me. Sorry but I will give some weight to the marble digs until I have something better. If there is something better I will be listening. Even hearsay,rumors,old wives tales,old wrong info in marble books,whatever,then I can decide. How many marbles have been identified from being dug? How many marbles would we have never seen or knew were made if not because of marble digs? For me marble digs who ever does it ? Is just another tool in the research of marble history. You have to go with the numbers and some common sense,until more proof becomes available. Most marble identifications come from different traits and sources not just a dig alone. Sometimes a dig will begin a identification with other items to help confirm it with time.

It is not thoughts of a few people that good amounts of marbles and or cullet from one company can end up at another different company site. It is the truth. I think several of us know what you are digging at ! I will change my mind if needed with new info,show me. I have done it many times before and expect to do it in the future.

har ... not much more needed to be added .. except the personal motives .. of the originator of this thread ... of " stirring" the pot .. with assumptions instead of .. on the ground " facts" ... and galen .. name the " salters" ... and QUIT .. blowing hot air ... bill

[wediscount2]

har ... not much more needed to be added .. except the personal motives .. of the originator of this thread ... of " stirring" the pot .. with assumptions instead of .. on the ground " facts" ... and galen .. name the " salters" ... and QUIT .. blowing hot air ... bill

Amen to the hot air!!!

[Steph]

It would be interesting to hear more about the salters.

However, please try to keep personal stuff to a minimum. Information = good. Personal digs = Board of Inquiry/Squabble Zone.

Thanks!

[lstmmrbls]

Or just possibly the original poster was trying to get some good information posted. I do not expect any or all to agree with me. And I do like hearing all sides. And I do not need to judge people by their opinions on marbles of all things. Thank you for posting Ron even with the pot shots. Now back to topic. So if large amounts of swirls were exchanged by West Virginia companies how is it possible to say for example a marble found at one site is not absolutely a marble from a different company? I do know that marbles were sometimes bought from other companies to fill jobber orders. I just do not believe cullet glass and marbles from marble production was exchanched to make other marbles.

[ann]

Not meant as a personal attack against you, or anyone else, Ron. You've done more than many -- if not most -- for the hobby, and certainly some things have been learned as a result of many digs. I'd like you to understand that I am simply speaking only for myself, as a long-time archaeologically-trained art historian; I can't help but see digging as vandalism, even if permission of the landowner has been sought and given -- so that attitude colors any and all I may have to say on the subject of digs. For me, the results of digs will always be subject to question, and not a good enough foundation upon which to build any theory. It's that simple, is all. And yes, those thoughts are fixed. And are likely to remain so.

But that doesn't stop me from having an interest in any answers that might surface from Galen's last questions -- I'd like to hear them.

[1313]

wheres roger when you need him

[wvrons]

I believe that I already answered the questions in my first post. Just because a marble is found at a site does not prove it was made there. But until there is other proof what other identification would you attach to it ? Again that is with numbers of marbles not one or a very few. How does any marble get identified to a maker? Original packages,is there any package that could not have been tampered with ? Original advertising or articles. We know that all those are not 100% accurate. Just like the 1940 National Geographic picture and St.Marys Alley article,on and on. Which recently came up again on Land of Marbles,now it is being hounded over here,in another hidden way. My whole point has been and still is that you get all the information you can and then you decide. If the only place a certain marble was ever dug was at Cairo and you want to believe it is CAC,fine you decided. What I get tired of is people who try to force their decisions and beliefs over,over and over. Just like the first pot shot with the first sentence at the start of this thread. I feel that all this thread was from the beginning was a pot shot at myself,some of my friends,and marble diggers. I know it is about Alley patch marbles being made at Sistersville. It is nothing new,just more and more force of a opinion. I have no hard proof that Alley never made a patch marble. But I have not received any hard proof that he did make a patch marble. If there is hard proof like I said,i am listening. I have said and say today that I do not believe that Alley ever made a patch type marble. Like I said earlier,that could change with new info. I feel this is why the thread was started,all about Alley patch marbles. But it was done under a disguise. As for marble diggers,one rotten potato can make the entire bag smell. Even with a paid written,lease,agreement,of the owner some will still think vandalism ? People always want to dig marbles but they would not like what follows. Marbles have been dug for years and will be dug in the future. The only solution diggers may have is to keep everything absolute secret. Not easy but can and has been done. Maybe good advice for myself. I also have a interest in what may surface with Galen's answers about the salters ???????

[lstmmrbls]

No need to take shots at me Ron. I have found that my posts seem to get much more discussion going even if I have to take the potshots that come as a result. And although I do take the potshots it is a shame they have to be made. I do not agree with a lot of folks opinions but I do not slight them or find fault with them because of their opinions. I do react at time to the pot shots but hopefully some day I will even become a good enough person to except that some folks just can not help themselves. The salting is no big deal. I have talked to 2 different diggers that would often take marbles from one company and drop them around the sites of other company digs. I guess they derived some kind of joy from doing it. Seemed a bit silly to me.

[Speed Racer]

Will this ever end? As an innocent bystander I can only read what others are saying and try to make up my own mind given my own life experiences.

I can appreciate that some may have in fact remained very professional, as in your case Ron, when it comes to digging and record keeping. And I can see why your feathers get ruffled quickly when you feel your credibility is getting stepped on a bit when Galen speaks the truth about what might have been happening at the digs over the years and it seems to me he is not accusing you of anything but rather he is reinforcing a belief that even under the strictest of supervisions there are always some unsupervised shenanigans

For whatever reason, seeding digs just for a laugh or perhaps for profit, just because they can, is to be expected. We all expect/assume what is supposed to be lying under the surface at a particular dig. If it weren't for some seeding, there would be some pretty boring books written about a dig. Huh?

I am with Ann on this. The digs were just not done in a manner even remotely resembling professional. C'mon, backhoes for uncovering glass? Apparently the thrill of the scores overshadowed the importance of the digs from an historical perspective. I remember reading about people being chased off properties (site dumps) with shotguns, meaning that anyone could walk up to a dig and throw in anything they wanted into a dig, which, after a good rain you'd never know the difference. And we'll never know till they fess up, which they won't, they never do unless it is on their deathbed. I think this is what Galen is trying to spell out. It is not a witch-hunt, it is a search for the truth.

Basically, you have found some marbles in the ground. How can you prove to me that the dig wasn't seeded? You can't. You can only vouch for yourself. Do you see what I mean? In the end identifying marbles will come down to three things: experience, color, and construction. But mostly experience. Certainly and hopefully not from some info provided from a dig. You can't wish this away as it is too late. The damage has been done. My mind is made up as well. And not likely to change.

[wvrons]

I will say it again one more time. Just because a marble is found at a site does not prove it was made there. But I still believe it is a place to start working on a identification. A dig site can be one of several tools used in finding a correct identification of a certain marble. Unless I read the original first statement or question wrong. Galen does not believe that large amounts(how ever many that is)of one companies marbles can be found at another companies site. He said personally he does not believe it happened. That is what I disagree with,and he knows I do not agree,so I felt it was as he says a pot shot. Nothing in this post is any thing new or any new information. I do not give many pot shots,i have taken more than my share. If you pass them out then expect it to come back. When my eyes have seen many times other companies marbles that do not belong at that site,i will disagree with the first statement. There are marbles at many sites that were not made there,as has been stated many times above. It still all goes back to the numbers,expierence,research and answering the question why ? If something looks a out of place,then why? As usual all this got off the original question or topic and digging marbles got drug into it. When the original post had nothing much to do with how marbles are dug ,why and what is found. I may have missed something but I thought the original question was,do you believe large(what ever that is)amounts of one companies marbles and or cullet can be found at another companies site? Depending on what numbers you are talking about,i do believe it. One marble in 10,000 is not large,but is 1% or 10% or 25% of the total, large ? One last time, i have seen good amounts of one companies marbles and cullet also at another companies site.

[lstmmrbls]

I should have been clearer, I do not believe marbles and marble cullet was sent to another company for them to make marbles with. Possibly single color marbles but not multicolored marbles or cullet. It is too hard to get an expected result with multicolored glass. I just do not believe they needed to resort to this time consuming process not sure of results. And probably never will. Of course a batch recipe example that includes something like yellow and green swirls from X company would certainly change my mind. Ron, please do not take my questions as an attack on your opinion, I respect your opinion, it doesn't mean we need to agree. And you have now posted a lot of interesting opinions, thats great, why take offense at my post. I am just looking for info and using a methos that seems to work well.

[wvrons]

I have another question? What evidence is there that Alley ever made a patch type marble at the Sistserville location or any other location?

[lstmmrbls]

This thread got me investigating. http://marbleconnection.com/topic/7024-what-the-h-e-double-toothpicks/page-2?hl=+alley%20+patch you seemed to be positive Alley made patches then. What changed your mind? Maybe someday I will cahange my mind. Thats how it works. Opinions are given evidence found assumptions made and other opinions made. It can be done with out the Pot shots.

[wediscount2]

This thread got me investigating. http://marbleconnection.com/topic/7024-what-the-h-e-double-toothpicks/page-2?hl=+alley%20+patch you seemed to be positive Alley made patches then. What changed your mind? Maybe someday I will cahange my mind. Thats how it works. Opinions are given evidence found assumptions made and other opinions made. It can be done with out the Pot shots.

Galen not trying to start anything but your next to last sentence I don't understand, could you re-phrase or clarify it a little. Ronnie

[lstmmrbls]

Ronnie there are several folks on this board that do not really care for me. But they all seem to be honest forthright folks that just do not like my opinions or the way I express them. I would be happy to answer any of their questions and heck even buy them lunch so we could argue and talk marbles. For you I have this,

[wvrons]

Yes I changed my mind about Alley patches and I may change it again with new information,just as I have stated in this post earlier. I have always been willing to change and plan to stay that way. With the information and what my eyes have seen as of today,I do not believe Alley made a patch type marble. I cannot and would not sell or id any patch marble as an Alley. If there is some new information again I am listening. No pot shot,it is for everyone. Everyone has a right to their opinion. It is just how the opinion is expressed sometimes that does not go over well. Sometimes it seems things are hidden or disguised as to bring on confrontations. Some people call it stirring the pot. It is not all done by one lone person. If you feel guilty maybe you are. My question is still what evidence is there that Alley made a patch type marble ? I will ask this until someone gives me some evidence or reasons which I am not aware of that Alley made a patch.

[Steph]

It was said that there was a shade of green Moss Agate found at an Alley site which hasn't been seen from any other factory. Does that observation still hold?

And do these marbles from an Alley site look like any particular other maker? Eeek! Those are big pix. (p.s., they're marbles Sandy posted)

[wediscount2]

Ronnie there are several folks on this board that do not really care for me. But they all seem to be honest forthright folks that just do not like my opinions or the way I express them. I would be happy to answer any of their questions and heck even buy them lunch so we could argue and talk marbles. For you I have this,

Ditto chromie, ditto!!!!!

[lstmmrbls]

I was hoping you would tell us what got you to change your mind. I was not trying to say there is anything at all wrong with changing your mind. To answer your question, I believe finding large quantities of a certain type of marble and the cullet that matches it at a manufacturing site one of the better ways to decide if you want to think that the marbles were made by a certain company. I have not yet had or seen them in a package so I have no real proof, just an opinion.