Popeye...different :0

[Gnome Punter]

I listed this lastnight

has anyone had a black/Blue popeye before ?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hybrid-3-color-Akro-Agate-popeye-M-41-64-/331390752171

Surface is great...but it is peppered with brick material inside of it as well. I assumed it may have been dug then again, I could be way off there.

Anyway, it was 1 of 2. I have seen red and yellow and sometimes a bit of orange, the oother one was a small sliver of red and a LOT of orange

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hybrid-Akro-Agate-popeye-M-11-16-17-3mm-/231399078558

[lstmmrbls]

You sure thats a Popeye. I can not see the clear?

[wvrons]

I agree,is it a clear base ? Is the other one a hybrid or lots of color thinning or bleed ?

[Gnome Punter]

Both are clear base

Other has 3 separate colors

[lstmmrbls]

I have had and have seen several of the inky black like corkscrews similar to yours. I do not believe any qualified as Popeyes. (wrong colors. No real stringy white and not much clear) (just the clear that often separates colors on Akros.

[MarbleDawg86]

Where's Dani? I believe she has mentioned a black popeye before...

[zaboo]

Hi! I do have back popeyes, what galen said.. sorry Gnome, your first marble is not a popeye, it has a translucent base, and the black is just a deeper shading of the indigo blue. a black popeye has to have totally true black..

[zaboo]

heres a black blue and oxblood popeye..it's a hybrid tho.

[Gnome Punter]

Hi! I do have back popeyes, what galen said.. sorry Gnome, your first marble is not a popeye, it has a translucent base, and the black is just a deeper shading of the indigo blue. a black popeye has to have totally true black..

hey Zaboo :0

I am pretty sure there is no true black glass except obsidian. Black seems to be sever shades of blue,green or deep reds that I have seen

That's a pretty marble.

[lstmmrbls]

Many marbles have for all intents and purposes "BLACK" Yes many are deep blue brown red purple etc, but many are "Black" Here is a group with just about all the types of Black. And notice how the cork Dani shows remains 'Black" even where the color is very thin. That is probably the biggest tell of true "Black"

Akro Peltier CAC and others had a true "Black" in their color pallet IMO

[Gnome Punter]

Many marbles have for all intents and purposes "BLACK" Yes many are deep blue brown red purple etc, but many are "Black" Here is a group with just about all the types of Black

Galen, you are confusing "looks black" with black glass.

The only way a marble could have borosilicate is if it were made after 1939 and the costly process to make it.....just not happening back then

I see, what you are calling black and I see 1 marble that is purple, 1 is green, 2 are brown and the rest LOOK black, but I do not think they are at all.

[lstmmrbls]

I would agree that most, if not all, made thin enough would look like a color other than black(most commonly a purple) but I believe there were some old recipes that were pretty dog gone "Black" and appear black even when very very thin..

And I don't think I ever mentioned Borosilicate or meant to include it in this conversation?

They are making it over at Owens

HOME → BUSINESS→ RETAIL

Print Story

Published: Sunday, 6/8/2014 - Updated: 5 months ago

Owens-Illinois says its black glass bottles are becoming its new green Firm boosts production as distilleries thirst for color

BY JON CHAVEZ
BLADE BUSINESS WRITER

Joe Fisher of Joseph’s Beverage Center, shows Miller Fortune’s bottling. MillerCoors says the packaging has prompted consumers to say ‘‍no other beer looks like Miller Fortune.’
THE BLADE/JEREMY WADSWORTHEnlarge | Buy This Photo

New York fashion experts agree that when it comes to clothing, blue is the new black.

But in the world of glass bottles, it appears that the new black is ... black.

Owens-Illinois Inc., which four years ago began experimenting with more cost-effective ways to make a variety of colored glass, has discovered that beer, wine, and distilled spirits-makers have taken a shine to black glass made by the Perrysburg company.

As a result, the glass-packaging maker has been beefing up its black-glass production capabilities worldwide to meet increased customer demand.

“There continues to be great enthusiasm around the capabilities we have created in our new innovation center. In the first quarter alone, we produced samples of more than 20 newly designed concepts for customers for wine, beer, and nonalcoholic beverages, highlighting the strong collaboration between our global-product innovation team and the research-and-development team,” O-I Chairman and CEO Al Stroucken told Wall Street analysts in late April when the company reported its first-quarter earnings.

In mid-April, O-I announced that it plans to spend more than $40 million to upgrade its plant in Alloa, Scotland, specifically to supply customers in the Scottish whisky business.

High on the list of products to be produced in Alloa: black glass bottles for a number of distilled spirits customers.

Lisa Babington, an O-I spokesman, said black glass isn’t a novelty product.

“It represents another choice we offer to our customers, and it’s growing in popularity. We expect it to gain in significance as the trend toward premiumization continues, however it is not a significant part of today's sales figures,” Ms. Babington said.

In the first quarter of 2014, O-I produced samples of 19 newly designed black glass concepts for customers producing wine, beer, distilled spirits, and nonalcoholic beverages, said Rildo Lima, who is O-I’s vice president and general manager for global specialties and global innovation as well as the company’s acting chief commercial officer.

Mr. Lima said that in 2010, when O-I started looking for better ways to protect the contents inside the bottles it makes, it began investigating a variety of new colors.

Black showed a lot of promise for two reasons.

Cutty Sark uses O-I’s black glass for its new Prohibition Edition blended scotch.
Enlarge

“No. 1, there was the aesthetic factor. It projects a premium image,” Mr. Lima said. “No. 2, could it provide better UV protection, that is, the same or better than amber?”

Mr. Lima said the answer to second question was yes, but O-I already could produce clear glass with adequate protection from ultra-violet rays.

The real question, he said, was whether O-I customers would see a premium value in using black glass. The answer, it turns out, was a resounding yes.

“Four years ago it was just two or three products, now we’re at 19 products,” Mr. Lima said.

One customer that has embraced black glass is MillerCoors brewing company, which is using O-I’s jet black bottles for its new Miller Fortune premium beer.

“Miller Fortune was developed to compete in spirits drinking occasions, and we wanted to design the packaging to be unique, sleek, and different from other beers. Black glass was preferred by consumers and was one of the visual icons to help launch Miller Fortune,” said Ben Feeney, marketing manager for branded innovations at MillerCoors.

Mr. Feeney said that with its black glass bottle, response to Miller Fortune “has been exceptional. Consumers have said that no other beer brand looks like Miller Fortune.”

Shawn Welch, vice president of sales and marketing for O-I North America, said the positive reaction to Miller Fortune was exactly why O-I began experimenting with new colors for its glass packaging, and why it believes black glass has a huge untapped potential.

Lots of potential

“MillerCoors wanted innovation around their new product. So what would make this product different?” Mr. Welch said.

“Color differentiation is one of those ideas where, if you look at a beer bottle, you see a lot of amber-colored beer bottles, you see some clear bottles, but you don’t see a lot of color differentiation.

“So when blue shows up, you notice that, like with Bud Light Platinum,” Mr. Welch said of Anheuser-Busch’s cobalt bottle.

“MillersCoors was looking to position this new beer, which has a higher alcohol content, and they wanted to make it look different on the shelf,” Mr. Welch said. “So we started to explore ways to process that and make that appearance stand out. It started with a normal stock bottle and then we said, ‘Why not make it appear black in color?’

“And with that we started to deal with shape differentiation to make it even more distinctive in the consumer’s mind when it is sitting on the shelf and in bars.”

Mr. Welch said a big selling point for O-I’s black glass is that it is “authentic,” that is, the glass is inherently black. Other black bottles in use start as clear glass with a black glass treatment or black sheet that covers it.

“If you break our glass, it will be black throughout,” Mr. Welch said.

How it is done

O-I officials declined to say how they make black glass.

But in general, glass can be made in various colors by adding various metals or chemical compounds during the glass-making process.

Mr. Feeney of MillerCoors said the solid black color assured the brewer that light will not penetrate the bottle and degrade the beer.

“Too much light or heat can change the way beer tastes or ‘skunk’ the taste,” Mr. Feeney said.

“Miller Fortune’s black bottle not only provides a unique design aesthetic, it keeps light out so the rich taste and smooth finish of the golden lager can come through consistently,” Mr. Feeney said.

[zaboo]

well gnome, I guess you would need the two types of popeyes I showed in hand to make a call. Galen has had both in his hot little hand, :-)

but OT. the marble in question is still not a popeye. LOL.

[Gnome Punter]

I would agree that most, if not all, made thin enough would look like a color other than black(most commonly a purple) but I believe there were some old recipes that were pretty dog gone "Black" and appear black even when very very thin..

And I don't think I ever mentioned Borosilicate or meant to include it in this conversation?

They are making it over at Owens

HOME → BUSINESS→ RETAIL

Print Story

Published: Sunday, 6/8/2014 - Updated: 5 months ago

Owens-Illinois says its black glass bottles are becoming its new green Firm boosts production as distilleries thirst for color

BY JON CHAVEZ

BLADE BUSINESS WRITER

Joe Fisher of Joseph’s Beverage Center, shows Miller Fortune’s bottling. MillerCoors says the packaging has prompted consumers to say ‘‍no other beer looks like Miller Fortune.’

THE BLADE/JEREMY WADSWORTHEnlarge | Buy This Photo

New York fashion experts agree that when it comes to clothing, blue is the new black.

But in the world of glass bottles, it appears that the new black is ... black.

Owens-Illinois Inc., which four years ago began experimenting with more cost-effective ways to make a variety of colored glass, has discovered that beer, wine, and distilled spirits-makers have taken a shine to black glass made by the Perrysburg company.

As a result, the glass-packaging maker has been beefing up its black-glass production capabilities worldwide to meet increased customer demand.

“There continues to be great enthusiasm around the capabilities we have created in our new innovation center. In the first quarter alone, we produced samples of more than 20 newly designed concepts for customers for wine, beer, and nonalcoholic beverages, highlighting the strong collaboration between our global-product innovation team and the research-and-development team,” O-I Chairman and CEO Al Stroucken told Wall Street analysts in late April when the company reported its first-quarter earnings.

In mid-April, O-I announced that it plans to spend more than $40 million to upgrade its plant in Alloa, Scotland, specifically to supply customers in the Scottish whisky business.

High on the list of products to be produced in Alloa: black glass bottles for a number of distilled spirits customers.

Lisa Babington, an O-I spokesman, said black glass isn’t a novelty product.

“It represents another choice we offer to our customers, and it’s growing in popularity. We expect it to gain in significance as the trend toward premiumization continues, however it is not a significant part of today's sales figures,” Ms. Babington said.

In the first quarter of 2014, O-I produced samples of 19 newly designed black glass concepts for customers producing wine, beer, distilled spirits, and nonalcoholic beverages, said Rildo Lima, who is O-I’s vice president and general manager for global specialties and global innovation as well as the company’s acting chief commercial officer.

Mr. Lima said that in 2010, when O-I started looking for better ways to protect the contents inside the bottles it makes, it began investigating a variety of new colors.

Black showed a lot of promise for two reasons.

Cutty Sark uses O-I’s black glass for its new Prohibition Edition blended scotch.

Enlarge

“No. 1, there was the aesthetic factor. It projects a premium image,” Mr. Lima said. “No. 2, could it provide better UV protection, that is, the same or better than amber?”

Mr. Lima said the answer to second question was yes, but O-I already could produce clear glass with adequate protection from ultra-violet rays.

The real question, he said, was whether O-I customers would see a premium value in using black glass. The answer, it turns out, was a resounding yes.

“Four years ago it was just two or three products, now we’re at 19 products,” Mr. Lima said.

One customer that has embraced black glass is MillerCoors brewing company, which is using O-I’s jet black bottles for its new Miller Fortune premium beer.

“Miller Fortune was developed to compete in spirits drinking occasions, and we wanted to design the packaging to be unique, sleek, and different from other beers. Black glass was preferred by consumers and was one of the visual icons to help launch Miller Fortune,” said Ben Feeney, marketing manager for branded innovations at MillerCoors.

Mr. Feeney said that with its black glass bottle, response to Miller Fortune “has been exceptional. Consumers have said that no other beer brand looks like Miller Fortune.”

Shawn Welch, vice president of sales and marketing for O-I North America, said the positive reaction to Miller Fortune was exactly why O-I began experimenting with new colors for its glass packaging, and why it believes black glass has a huge untapped potential.

Lots of potential

“MillerCoors wanted innovation around their new product. So what would make this product different?” Mr. Welch said.

“Color differentiation is one of those ideas where, if you look at a beer bottle, you see a lot of amber-colored beer bottles, you see some clear bottles, but you don’t see a lot of color differentiation.

“So when blue shows up, you notice that, like with Bud Light Platinum,” Mr. Welch said of Anheuser-Busch’s cobalt bottle.

“MillersCoors was looking to position this new beer, which has a higher alcohol content, and they wanted to make it look different on the shelf,” Mr. Welch said. “So we started to explore ways to process that and make that appearance stand out. It started with a normal stock bottle and then we said, ‘Why not make it appear black in color?’

“And with that we started to deal with shape differentiation to make it even more distinctive in the consumer’s mind when it is sitting on the shelf and in bars.”

Mr. Welch said a big selling point for O-I’s black glass is that it is “authentic,” that is, the glass is inherently black. Other black bottles in use start as clear glass with a black glass treatment or black sheet that covers it.

“If you break our glass, it will be black throughout,” Mr. Welch said.

How it is done

O-I officials declined to say how they make black glass.

But in general, glass can be made in various colors by adding various metals or chemical compounds during the glass-making process.

Mr. Feeney of MillerCoors said the solid black color assured the brewer that light will not penetrate the bottle and degrade the beer.

“Too much light or heat can change the way beer tastes or ‘skunk’ the taste,” Mr. Feeney said.

“Miller Fortune’s black bottle not only provides a unique design aesthetic, it keeps light out so the rich taste and smooth finish of the golden lager can come through consistently,” Mr. Feeney said.

..........

Galen, you are confusing yourself now.

We were speaking of marbles. Specifically made from the teens to the 30's

I mentioned THE ONLY OPTION for black at that time...you went left field with a modern reference which has no bearing, at all, on what I said,implied or was conveying

Danni, it is wispy, it is white and 2 colors. The difference is the colors are separated. I still see a popeye

I will whip out the macro lens later and get you pics. Those were taken with my cell phone which is why they look like butt. I mean, look at the other marble, poor images as well. Now that my stuff is back to par, I will add new images

[ann]

The only way a marble could have borosilicate is if it were made after 1939 and the costly process to make it.....just not happening back then

It looks like it was happening at some places. I have a copy of Henry Hellmers' (Akro's glass chemist) batch book, and in it he has several pages of formulas for "Black or Ebony Glass," with the oldest dated 1927. Several formulas each for (among others) Cambridge Glass (1930, 1931, 1932), Akro Agate (1928), and Lawrence Glass, Sistersville (1932).

I think most companies used whatever could give them the appearance of black, whether it was dark purple, dark blue, dark green, etc., and from that came the generalization that "there is no black glass." But there is. And was. You just don't see it often.

Think back to the so-called "Indian." They're black, except for the occasional "maglight Indian" using deep purple, blue, green -- I even have an amber one. And the black used in a late minority of the old German swirls. A couple of Hellmers' formulas are old German ones . . .

If I get realy bored later, I'll sift through them for the common ingredients , , ,

[Gnome Punter]

It looks like it was happening at some places. I have a copy of Henry Hellmers' (Akro's glass chemist) batch book, and in it he has several pages of formulas for "Black or Ebony Glass," with the oldest dated 1927. Several formulas each for (among others) Cambridge Glass (1930, 1931, 1932), Akro Agate (1928), and Lawrence Glass, Sistersville (1932).

I think most companies used whatever could give them the appearance of black, whether it was dark purple, dark blue, dark green, etc., and from that came the generalization that "there is no black glass." But there is. And was. You just don't see it often.

Think back to the so-called "Indian." They're black, except for the occasional "maglight Indian" using deep purple, blue, green -- I even have an amber one. And the black used in a late minority of the old German swirls. A couple of Hellmers' formulas are old German ones . . .

If I get realy bored later, I'll sift through them for the common ingredients , , ,

The assertion is that black was not black but, as said, red,blue,green in combinations.

I mean, it escapes me to be honest, but it is what it is.

I would think bringing obsidian into the mix, taking it down to molten, would give that effect. Then again, I know it is more brittle than glass, so who knows.

Would still like to see those formulas. That does sound pretty cool. I also bet the formulas utilize multiple colors of glass or silica to try and reach a black-like color

[Alan]

As others have observed - that isn't a Popeye.

[ann]

What he ^^^ said.

[ann]

Would still like to see those formulas. That does sound pretty cool. I also bet the formulas utilize multiple colors of glass or silica to try and reach a black-like color

Your intuition is right. When you're talking about pigments (sez the cranky old art historian), black is the presence of all colors. (When you're talking about light, however, the presence of all colors gives you white. How annoying.)

Anyhoo, there's a little more variation in the formulas for black than I expected to see, although I can make some generalizations. In addition to sand and soda, the most common ingredient used as a colorant is manganese oxide, which shouldn't surprise anybody. Although there are a few formulas without it. Those mostly have coal and some sulfur.

Here are two formulas from Akro Agate, both noted as "Black opal dense good" in 1928. The ingrediants vary slightly; the first number is from one formula, the second number is from the other one. Measurements are in pounds. >> insert "first you get a bunch of sand" jokes here <<

Sand 1000 1000

Soda 360 360

Nitrate 40 37 1/2

MnO2 25 25 (This is the magnese oxide)

Cobalt 1 1/4 1 7/8

Feldspar 250 300

Fluorspar 110 102

Sod.sil.fl 40 50

Pot. Bichrom. 5 6 1/4

Nickle ox. 2 1/2 2 1/2

For comparison, here's the one for Lawrence Glass (1932)

Sand 600

Soda 300

Limestone 60

Coal 30

MnO2 80

Cobalt 1/2

Pot. Bichrom. 7

Nickle ox. 5

Some variations arn't in colorants so much as to adjust the glass to be heat-resistant or to be used in pressed-glass ware . . .

[lstmmrbls]

And if you read enough articles on black glass you will read that they were even making it pre WWI

[ann]

Yep. A few of my old German swirls have black -- and it's very black. No hint of color under strong light.

[Gnome Punter]

And if you read enough articles on black glass you will read that they were even making it pre WWI

Yah, but again, we are talking marbles, not corning. Patents mattered then, unlike now.

I understand you all wish to convince me there is real black glass in those marbles,but that is just not the fact of the matter.

I altered my listing so as not to cause distress.

[ann]

Yah, but again, we are talking marbles, not corning. Patents mattered then, unlike now.

I understand you all wish to convince me there is real black glass in those marbles,but that is just not the fact of the matter.

What patents are you talking about? The old glass formulas weren't patented. I seem to have missed something . . .

It doesn't matter to me whether or not you believe there is or is not black glass. Not trying to convince you. Just giving you information. You can certainly have your opinion about it -- as can we all --, but you really shouldn't say that it "is just not the fact of the matter" when what you're saying is opinion -- not fact. You've certainly surprised me.

[Gnome Punter]

What patents are you talking about? The old glass formulas weren't patented. I seem to have missed something . . .

It doesn't matter to me whether or not you believe there is or is not black glass. Not trying to convince you. Just giving you information. You can certainly have your opinion about it -- as can we all --, but you really shouldn't say that it "is just not the fact of the matter" when what you're saying is opinion -- not fact. You've certainly surprised me.

My statement was fact, everyone else is assuming.

There are no true black glass marbles from the inception till AT LEAST as early as 1936 and that is still not even worth considering due to the processes used to make black glass.

I know, I am the new guy, but I know my math and i know my science.

Buy a cheap 20.00 spectrascope, smash some marbles from the era, cheapies ...or not It will not change my view either way.

True black glass did not exist until the late 1800's. Duran was built around that discovery. That formula was shared with Corning. The formula was patented in 1931.

You guys know how those old machines work, how many ran on pure oxygen with a nitros mix ? Thats what you would need to make black glass, actually black. It's not like agates and sugar, it takes a specific mix of silica,boron,etc and specific thermal reactions.

Anyway

I am going to leave the topic, it's a chase your tale thing now

I edited the listing to make sure no one felt I was being misleading. I am going to get off my butt and get those images up. The macro lens doesn;t lie

I hope everyone's thanks giving goes well. I am wiped out already from shopping and cleaning and tomorrow is hours upon hours of pie making and precooking a few items as well as soooo much nit pick scrubbing.....I do all the cooking, but the wife does all of the bitching

Night all

[ann]

Not sure what you think "black" is, but as a color (as opposed to light) it is a mixture of all colors. Basic color science. But then I'm also of the "if it walks like a duck and looks like a duck and quacks like a duck" then it's a duck, school. At least here. I can't help but think that if glass is so dark and dense that it appears to be black -- completely opaque, no light whatsoever can penetrate it -- what else is it but black?

Actually, all the old guys needed to obtain opaque black was arsenic, plus a whole bunch of manganese oxide, and a few other things (cobalt, coal, and some people used . . . well, not to put too fine a point on it . . . sheep dung. Don't know whether other dung varieties were used or not.

So I dunno. I understand your point, but I don't really understand your definition of black. In the meantime, I'm going with the professional glass chemist, Henry Hellmers. And his predecessors.

P.S. I don't think of you as the new guy. Maybe because I'm gettin' real old myself, but it seems to me you've been here long enough to not fall into that category any more. FWIW!