Using Grouping Of Marbles To Infer Their Age.

[hdesousa]

Privy diggers often date their items based on other items of known age found at the same level.

Although not authoritative either, can we not infer the age of some marbles based on other marbles they are found with?

Here is an interesting group of marbles.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Estate-Lot-65-Marbles-German-Swirl-Slag-Bennington-Hand-Made-Mica-Brick-Antique-/191542164277

I'm trying to date a couple examples of those red/white marbles which we've been discussing on this board.

The seller assures me no marbles were added to the find, and the only marbles removed were some run of the mill slags and clays, and "less old-looking corkscrews", which I presume may have been 'transition' type marbles.

Assuming this is true, can we say all the marbles here are pre-1930?

Winnie, is that purple/white marble in the upper right an European swirl?

Do you know when they were first made?

Does anyone know when Japanese 'transitions' were first made?

[Alan]

One can't conclude from a vertical level that marbles are found that they are of relative age. While this is often true in pure archeology - the fact is that marbles are accumulated, passed down between generations and can often be a mixed bag of origins and eras. Of course a story that comes with marbles offered for sale can be unreliable or suspect.

A marble is what it in in hand. The story that comes with it doesn't affect identification.

[Steph]

Not sure I would say all pre-1930 based on what I'm seeing in the photo.

The yellow on the lower left edge, the purply flamey in the upper right quadrant, the red and white in the very center [edit: that's a transitional, isn't it], and the aqua and white on the bottom left, make me consider pushing this into the 30's. Or at least I'd like to look more closely at them.

The "less old-looking corkscrews" are a wild-card. They need to be considered.

[ann]

I have to agree with Alan. In addition to being "heirloomed," marbles are small, round, and have relative weight, meaning they're goin' down as far as they can go every time the earth in their vicinity is disturbed. The only conclusion that can be drawn from a group "find," if that's what's pictured, is that none are older than the oldest one found in the group.

That being said . . . there are a couple I wouldn't be comfortable dating to before 1930. Focusing on the nice red & white "9" at right center: the marble to the right of it, the extremely flamey purplish one, looks suspiciously like an Alley to me. Unless it's one of the Veiliglas ones, as you suggest. And the green-based white swirl above the R & W one . . . just looks like a WV swirl to me. Don't think I'd put either of them pre-1930. But that could just be me.

In several places I've seen the ones we generally refer to as Japanese (spidery pontil) attributed to the 1950s, but I've never seen any evidence put forward for or against that. So I have no idea, really. That whole class of marbles (Japanese, German, Canadian, Jovian) has suddenly become a can of worms for me . . .

[ann]

I agree with adding the aqua and white on the bottom left, and maybe the yellow . . .

[winnie]

Do you mean the second pic- upper right,I'm not sure,looks like a Japanese slag to me.

I believe the Japanese trans- are older as we think sofar..

Got this in the mail yesterday,it's a Dutch collection,the seller told me these are marbles from 1920-1950.

This is typically how a Dutch marble group looks.

[winnie]

Because the Netherlands and Germany are neighbors,would tell you,if Germany has made Transitional slags,there's still some need to be in this group.

Does anyone make a guess??

[hdesousa]

<snip>The only conclusion that can be drawn from a group "find," if that's what's pictured, is that none are older than the oldest one found in the group.<snip>

I don't understand what you mean, Ann.

If you come across an old group of marbles, and assuming nothing has been added to them (which I know, is a big assumption), can you not reliably assume that no marble is younger than the youngest identifiable marble?

For example, I was asking here about these red and white marbles:

http://marbleconnection.com/topic/18714-odd-akros/?hl=akros

And Scott says, in post #4, that "in a recent purchase of akro marbles, quite a few of these marble were present, i didnt think much about it until this post?????"

If the youngest marbles Scott found in his group of marbles were from the 1930's, (and I don't know that as a fact), can we not assume my red and white marbles are from the 1930's?

[Steph]

That would be a clue. Not grounds for an assumption though.

However, in my opinion 1930's is a good guess for the age of transitionals.

[Steph]

Because the Netherlands and Germany are neighbors,would tell you,if Germany has made Transitional slags,there's still some need to be in this group.

Does anyone make a guess??

I don't quite follow.

It seems some could be older than 1920 but still could be in that range. Is that a cat's eye up top?

[ann]

Do you mean the second pic- upper right,I'm not sure,looks like a Japanese slag to me.

Going back and looking at the ebay pics, you may be right, Winnie.

[ann]

I don't understand what you mean, Ann.

If you come across an old group of marbles, and assuming nothing has been added to them (which I know, is a big assumption), can you not reliably assume that no marble is younger than the youngest identifiable marble?

Yes, I think it works both ways. But what are the youngest marbles in that group? I think there are two or three that could be from the 1930s or 1940s.

And personally -- and this is really just an opinion -- I think all the Troublesome Transitionals (as I have started to think of them) are probably from the (maybe late)1920s through the early 1930s. It's not impossible for them to be from a little earlier in the 1920s, either, I don't think -- if you consider that period being the transition haha between methods -- hand-gathered but machine-rounded. Then maybe all the pontil types would make sense. Maybe. As they were figuring out just the right timing and temperature for that process. Makes me have even more respect for old MF Christensen . . .

And that's a great box there, Hansel!

[lstmmrbls]

I used to be a privy digger, Always aged the holes by the age of the house and when plumbing was first installed. But we still found lots of stuff that was not from the time period from when the house was built to when the indoor plumbing was installed. That was some fun treasure hunting as folks usually left in the hole anything that dropped in accidentally. Coins and rings were not terribly uncommon. Marbles also showed on many occasions. Even found a neat complete China doll.

As for marble groups I think a lot of times a semi-decent assumption can be made as to age. And like Ann I believe there are many handgathered marbles from Germany as I make the assumption that they followed similar processes that we did in the stages of marble making as they went from handmades to machine mades. I believe there are some 20s German adds that mention glass onyx types.

[winnie]

I don't quite follow.

It seems some could be older than 1920 but still could be in that range. Is that a cat's eye up top?

Well seen Steph,I put it there by mistake LOL.

I understand why you "don't quite follow it",it's my bad English.

I will try again.

In my group with German handmades from 1920 or earlier and a lot of transitionals,wouldn't it be normal,if Germany has made transitionals,that they may be found in this group??

Untill now I don't know the difference between German and Japanese transitionals,except the German ground pontil transitionals,which are described in "collecting early machine made marbles",in my eyes they're the real German transitions.I think the ones in my group are all Japanese,I can be wrong though......or does anyone seen a German transitional in my group??

[Steph]

Ah. Yes.

I think of practically all transitionals as Japanese. I have one which is called German but when I see transitional I still think "likely imported from Japan".

[hdesousa]

I think of practically all transitionals as Japanese. I have one which is called German but when I see transitional I still think "likely imported from Japan".

What makes you think anything other than what Roger Browse calls pinch pontils, are Japanese?

Risking repetition ad nauseam,

This is what Roger says here:

http://members.kingston.net/browse/transpics/trans2.html

"The “pinch pontil” (column 1) is the most distinctive type, and they are the type (and only type) found in boxes marked “MADE IN JAPAN”. There are no clues to the origins of the other types...."

[Steph]

I more or less accept that the one said to be German is German. I wish I had more evidence of it. Also, I still want to think some were made in China.

But most transitionals I see do have the spidery pontil, so by the numbers I just think "Japanese" when I see a transitional.

Winnie, what kinds of cutlines do your transitionals in that lot have?

[winnie]

Steph,Like other groups of vintage marbles that I find here,all different cut offs.

spidery---long line---short line---pin pricks.

I personally think what most confusing in this is;the pinch cut off Japanese,Roger has pointed out here in the tabel,

http://members.kingston.net/browse/transpics/trans2.html

They're all sloppy made.

I have nice made Japanese ones with spidery cut off's.

Have time tonight to do some pictures of them.

I'll do it in a new post,cause don't want to hijacked Hansel's post again,sorry.

What Roger said

The “pinch pontil” (column 1) is the most distinctive type, and they are the type (and only type) found in boxes marked “MADE IN JAPAN”. There are no clues to the origins of the other types.

In my Japanese box are all kind of different cut off'

[Steph]

"In my Japanese box are all kind of different cut off"

That is good information!

Maybe you could arrange your box so that they're all pontil end up and get a photo.

[Steph]

Someone reminded me of the little box here:

"1931" Collection

A 1931 comic strip, marbles which look like they came from close to 1931.

And a little Japanese box.

Always possible that someone got the little box separately and tucked it in later. But if we're going by general age of group ....