Hybrid vs. End of Run

[Fire1981]

What is the difference between these 2 terms ?

[Ric]

I am not really sure, Rick, but consider this:

A single run could last for hours or days, maybe even weeks, depending on what they are making. Over the course of the run, things might change a bit, and marbles produced at the end of the run might look a bit different than those at the beginning of the run, and could be referred to as "end of run" marbles. How exactly you might know this, or which end of the run corresponds to which marbles, without actually being there, is above my pay grade. And I think the term is pretty useless with regards to machine-made marbles.

Hybrids on the other hand occurred when they were switching base or striping glass to make a different color scheme. Imagine Marble King changing from green to blue striping glass while keeping the yellow (think bumblebee) base glass flowing - the hybrids would be blue green and/or blue and green ribbons, depending on the particulars, I guess.

Of course, all of this is IMO.

[Alan]

I believe that both term are misused >95% of the time they appear.

A "hybrid" is a cross between two known, defined types of anything.  A marble that is a hybrid should have clear qualities of two known marble types that we can actually name.  People have become lazy with the term to mean that it has something a little (or a lot) off from a know type.  A blob of an unintended color isn't a "hybrid", but using the word "hybrid" seems to lean towards inferring that it is either more rare or desirable (usually with not much appreciation of marble-making).

A marble "run" could last as long as the tank did not require rebuilding.  A tank and the associated machinery were made to last as long as reasonably possible within the limits of cost.  Keep in mind that marble production wasn't a random, experimental process.  Manufacturers had a catalog of designs and salesmen that sold to and took specific orders from retailers.  Retailers ordered specifically what they wanted and knew sold well - not "Give me whatever you want".  Manufacturer Salesman's cases showed what was available and in what sizes, as did their advertisements.  Akro could produce yellow and blue corkscrews for years and years - and did.  Akro (for example) shipped three full train boxcars at least twice each week - and that doesn't count truck transport.

Use of the term "Same run" (I see it more and more) to describe machine mades shows a lack of understanding of vintage marble manufacturing.  Whatever design it is was most likely produced for at least a year - probably longer.  And they did their best to ensure consistency to the basic design and color, again within cost constraints.  Marbles that didn't meet consistency or quality requirements went to the dump sites(and they discarded a LOT of marbles).  So how could anyone know that two marbles were made in which week or month?  Especially when they were supposed to look the same.  'Mike' running machines #1-3 wasn't given leeway to make whatever he wanted that struck his whimsy.  This was a business filling specific orders from retailers and wholesalers.  For years.  No-one who uses the word "run" could tell you how they know when that "run" was active

"End of run" is a bad corruption of "End of cane" from handmade marbles.  It doesn't describe anything that anyone can actually name.  Hence it isn't helpful or descriptive more than "hybrid".

[akroorka]

This all makes sense to me.

One of the hardest to find white based corkscrews is the yellow and white. How many runs were really made we will never know but I can say this much, they are very hard to match.

We have all seen the videos of the workers throwing shovel-fulls of cullet into the furnace. Not a real specific science to it all--a shovel here and a shovel there, next load up and a few shovels full more, then bring in the next color and see what happens at the quality control end of it all. With the lighting available at the factory hybrids were sure to form.

End of runs maybe had more pieces of furnace brick in them because of the deterioration of the furnace itself.

Marble--On!!

[Fire1981]

BANG ! Thanks for the information. I never really knew how long a run would last. 

[schmoozer]

40 minutes ago, akroorka said:

This all makes sense to me.

One of the hardest to find white based corkscrews is the yellow and white. How many runs were really made we will never know but I can say this much, they are very hard to match.

We have all seen the videos of the workers throwing shovel-fulls of cullet into the furnace. Not a real specific science to it all--a shovel here and a shovel there, next load up and a few shovels full more, then bring in the next color and see what happens at the quality control end of it all. With the lighting available at the factory hybrids were sure to form.

End of runs maybe had more pieces of furnace brick in them because of the deterioration of the furnace itself.

Marble--On!!

Crap… now I gotta go thru all my akro storage bins🤯🤯

what other color rarities should I be looking for?

[wvrons]

I agree with Ric on the hybrids. It usually occurs during color change or switch. The last of one color and the beginning of the next color. There is usually no clean break or stoppage between different colors. It is best to keep all the equipment running steady and as long as possible. If shut down, it cools which can cause all kinds of problems including rust. Many of the first marbles made after a several hours shut down will be trash. Everything needs to get up to operating temperatures. The machine rolls usually get heat from the hot glass marbles rolling across them. 

 What is a run ? When does a run end ? Is it a certain color ? Is it a certain size ?  Is it a certain amount of weight ? Or when the equipment is shut down for a extended period ?  I agree a single run could be four hours, four days, or four weeks. That can all depend on the need. The term run got popular with the Jabo special investor runs. Most of these were done by weight or time. Investors paid for a certain amount of time or weight. But even then the equipment many times continued to run or make marbles for days ahead, after the investor run was ended. The investors time or run was ended and those colors stopped. Next could have been game marbles or industrial marbles. Unless you were present, how would you know what marbles were the last ? Is end of run the last 100 or the last 1000 marbles ?  One minute can produce 250 or more marbles. 

 Some like end of day with handmade marbles. What is end of day ? Is it the last marble off of the last cane of the day ?  Most of what I see labeled end of day, look to me like first off of cane. The colors usually do not reach all the way to the end of the marble. Most times the end of cane is so small that it is discarded.  There would or could be hundreds of canes made per day. Some say that the workers at the end of the day would add the left over colors all together and make a end of day marble. I have to wonder about that, if it happened very often or daily. Why would they not use that left over colored glass of the day, for the next day, or next week ? I have seen very few if any handmades that I thought were a mix of colors that were used all throughout the day. 

I have lots of concerns around anyone selling a marble as end of run, end of day and other marble terms. Many times the term is nothing but just a sales pitch to raise the price and make a buyer pay more attention to or want the marble more. Look at the marble, buy the marble, not the sellers sales pitch. It is good to listen but it may not always be 100% true or accurate. The more rare, the more special, the less numbers, the more different, the more attention the marble gets. The more the price goes up.  This can be true or maybe not ? Many times rare or less numbers can depend on the area.  Peltiers are lots more rare in WV than in IL. Jabo marbles are more rare and less in AZ than they are in OH. If you buy based on what a seller says alone, it is a gamble.  

 Use any name, label or term with a marble you want. But some may throw red flags up to some people. It can be a way to judge how experienced a collector or seller is .  Sometimes just how honest the person or seller is.  I hate it when someone brags to me that they have collected, bought and sold for twenty years. Then they try to sell me a newer Vacor as vintage. Or try to tell me how this one single machine made marble was made special on purpose and there is only one. Next is well maybe there were six or a dozen made. Then after they get in deep, I explain a few things. Then they always say how do you know that ? Next is who are you ? Then they get quiet and no more sales pitch. I like it better when the seller lets me ask the questions. Maybe I will learn something and maybe they will also ? In over twenty five years, I have never had the need to ask if a marble was the end of a run or end of the day.  First off of cane or same cane, yes .  

 

[wvrons]

 I agree go find three opaque white base and yellow corks in the next year. Sounds easy, try it, I have.   You will find opaque white base and yellow corks are small numbers. Probably just a planned experimental short run LOL !!!!!!!!!!    It has to be opaque white, no light shines through anywhere. 

[schmoozer]

Off the top of my head, I’ve got 4 or that that also have a stripe of black. Will let you if I find any🤔

[wvrons]

No black. Just opaque white base and yellow cork.  OPAQUE white base and yellow cork.   Black or another color changes everything.   

[akroorka]

Here are the yellow/white that I have been chasing for the last 4-5 years--I just want ten to fill a row. I want them all the same--fussy--yes, but this is the way that I collect.

5/8" is what I consider to be a #0 sorted at the factory. Some look bigger and some look smaller--this is my most humble opinion on what a #0 would be, sorted by Akro machinery back in the day. These all seem to be smaller, I have found only two that are 11/16"--none bigger.

The funny thing is--mentioning the yellow with black, is that black/white of this same size were the second hardest for me to find ten of--I wonder--lol.

This is a challenge that I present--the winner gets nothing but a great big hurray--lol. I will even hint at the difference with an image under UV and the other lighting that I have used. I will post a pure UV shot later today--good luck!

These yellow/white must have been a small run because of the rarity and it adds to the probablity of runs of the same marble with different looks/cullet used.

Speculation is a great thing--

Speculate--on!! and Marble --on as well!!!

I love this stuff!!!

[Fire1981]

I really appreciate the information. These terms were “loosely” used 15 or so years ago. 

[akroorka]

No guesses and I do not blame you at all.

So far I am batting about 500 with the yellow/whites---unreal.

Marble—On!!

[Fire1981]

Ron. Do you think Sissy Dear has some of these ? Bo Stiff showed my a handful of these he had. I didn’t know a 2 colored Cork was more HTF then Pop-Eyes.

[schmoozer]

2 hours ago, akroorka said:

No guesses and I do not blame you at all.

So far I am batting about 500 with the yellow/whites---unreal.

Marble—On!!

Found some… and some black corks as well. I had a lot of these boxes at local antique shows for $25/box, no takers

[akroorka]

"Found some… and some black corks as well. I had a lot of these boxes at local antique shows for $25/box, no takers"

I would have jumped in with both feet and may be even offered more feeling sorry for the seller offering them at such a low price.

Those B/Y show up as a Popeye's in rare instances.

Great group--and still hard to find.

Marble--On!!