psia-antique Posted February 19, 2010 Report Share Posted February 19, 2010 You talking to me? Just responding to Alan, but I guess it should have been to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 MFC had a formula for the glass we now call Oxblood Glass. Akro had a formula for this glass. Obtained from MFC. This formula probably originated in Germany as some early German handmades contain true Oxblood Glass. Many of us only consider certain glass True Oxblood Glass. It is not a color to us. It is a type of glass. And microcrystalline copper is what determines it being true Oxblood glass. It has also been made by reheating certian types of glass(goldstone) in the new Jabo runs. Lots of folks now call lots of red-brown glass Oxblood. It just is not Oxblood glass to many people. And calling any dark red brown stripes etc on a marble Oxblood to make a sale on ebay is a sales ploy. Not a true desription IMO. Where does one draw the line as to what is Oxblood glass, To many including myself it will always be the microcrystalline copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinemades Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 Has anyone melted and analyzed any other company (Other than Akro and MFC) oxblood glass to make sure they do not qualify for certain group of marble collectors oxblood criteria? Sami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 <snip> Where does one draw the line as to what is Oxblood glass, To many including myself it will always be the microcrystalline copper. So - to the purpose of the thread - how do you recommend diagnosing the absence or presence of "microcrystalline copper" in marbles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'llhavethat1 Posted February 20, 2010 Report Share Posted February 20, 2010 20 x magnification? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popculturizm Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 well I originally started the thread to see if there were any other known vintage type "oxblood" marbles other than the MFC - Akro (and earlier German types) by this I mean, did Peltier purposefully make an Oxblood marble, and like wise did Vitro Agate or even Champion, at one point really good "Oxblood's" brought a premium price, today the term has gotten so diluted, just like using "Akro" to steer someone to an auction on FleaBay, But if what I have read is correct - "true Oxblood's" ended with Akro, some Mid century companies manufactured "Oxblood's" by chance or mistake, and some Modern Companies are artfully attempting to created "true Oxblood's" again, and I think that is what I was trying to ascertain from starting this thread in the first place. thank you again for all your input Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Heres my take on the whole ball of wax.Ill try to keep it short. 1-oxblood was a color,long before it ("oxblood") was assigned to a specific,color,with a specific,chemical composition,in the marble community. 2-The marble community,has given "oxblood",a more specific,definition.Generaly,it has to be some type of microcrystiline copper,based.Its kind of the "standard" that has been established in the marble community. 3-The use of the words,"true oxblood",can be confusing,to those who have used the term,in referance to a color,out side of the marble communty.There are other thing out there,that have differant definitions,in order to qualify as oxblood. To say,that only akro/mfc formulas of microcrystiline based oxblood,is a "true" oxblood,is to say,any other "oxblood" is illegitimite,based on the findings,of limited testing,and perception of what oxblood was in the first place. 4-There is more than one chemical composition,that creates,"oxblood",and there was oxblood,in glass,that predates akro/mfc. Its all in YOUR perception.Either way,its not that burnt red,or just shades of brown,too me. Im gonna stick with a literal interpretation of,"if it looks like dried blood,then its oxblood".Its kind of the whole point of the name. Dang it!---Now Im hungry for steak. I wonder if I got one of those,steroid enhanced,secretly aged,with co2,and the antibiotic kicker,Walmart,steaks in the freezer? Talked myself out of that one,,, "Honey,glab some fish out of the freezer"!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Re: #3. I will NOT say "true oxblood" again - unless I'm talking about the blood of an ox! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 MFC had a formula for the glass we now call Oxblood Glass. Akro had a formula for this glass. Obtained from MFC. This formula probably originated in Germany as some early German handmades contain true Oxblood Glass. Many of us only consider certain glass True Oxblood Glass. It is not a color to us. It is a type of glass. And microcrystalline copper is what determines it being true Oxblood glass. It has also been made by reheating certian types of glass(goldstone) in the new Jabo runs. Lots of folks now call lots of red-brown glass Oxblood. It just is not Oxblood glass to many people. And calling any dark red brown stripes etc on a marble Oxblood to make a sale on ebay is a sales ploy. Not a true desription IMO. Where does one draw the line as to what is Oxblood glass, To many including myself it will always be the microcrystalline copper. In the recent past you have told us thar JABO uses single stream machine...they do not and you were even at the factory for a run and should know better. Remember the coffee can of fritt you dumped in a crucible. Well that was the second stream and we both there were more. Recently, you told us if we wanted to be up on the hobby the place to come for the knowledge is the chat boards. I propose that if you read more of the literature you probably would know that MFC bought his ox formula from a third generation glass maker....a third generation American glass maker. AND now, you want us to believe that oxblood, the term as used in the common language of marbles ia a "kind of glass". Have I missed something else? The books I read say oxblood, the term as commonly used in marbles is the name of a color that was assigned by children who played with them. Anywhere I have read this about the origins of the the term, I have not heard it discussed as a manufacturing process, but as a color...NOT a "kind of glass." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popculturizm Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Ok so not trying to start a full scale "Oxblood incident" what would you call these...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 The machines at Jabo are considered single stream machines. And all the marbles that come out of them are single stream marbles. All the glass is melted in one furnace and one stream comes out of that furnace. Yes some colors are put into seperate crucibles in the one futnace but all the glass mixes in that one furnace and there is only one stream. And if you want to consider Oxblood only a color please feel free to do so. But there are many marble collectors that believe Oxblood is a type of glass not just a color. Brian does a great job of describing it here what is oxblood glass Cateyes and Corkscrews are a good example of a multiple stream marble as are many Peltiers Seperate furnaces or divided furnaces, separate streams brought together out side of the furnace to form the marbles. here is a two stream setup. Swirls are and will always be single stream marbles. It is not how the glass is mixed in the one furnace that determines single or multiple stream marbles. When and if the streams from separate sources are brought together outside of the furnaces determines single or multiple stream, always has always will. And I propose that you shouldn't be telling me what I should or shouldn't be reading or what I should or shouldn't be posting. Why not just post your opinions and not attack mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Ok so not trying to start a full scale "Oxblood incident" what would you call these...? Oxblood incident. haha. You're a cute one. Are the red ribbons transparent/translucent on those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
migbar Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 I'm with Galen. Jabo makes single stream marbles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popculturizm Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Oxblood incident. haha. You're a cute one. Are the red ribbons transparent/translucent on those? Hi and yes transparent... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Ok,Im not trying to start crap,but Im sure the fan is getting close. Who determined what "true oxblood "is? Why is the term,true oxblood,assigned to the formula,exclusively produce by akro/mfc? Did it get isolated to be,"true oxblood",because of unique chemical composition? Is it like Highlander,"there can be only one"? Just asking,,,, Griff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Hi and yes transparent... It's not what I would label oxblood. :-) But you knew that, right? Were you heading some direction with this? (I hope that didn't sound antagonistic. Not meant that way. Pardon me for getting turned around. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popculturizm Posted February 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 It's not what I would label oxblood. :-) But you knew that, right? Were you heading some direction with this? (I hope that didn't sound antagonistic. Not meant that way. Pardon me for getting turned around. :-) and yes I would not call them "Oxblood's" and yes it is one of those cases where you will see similar mib's listed as such. but this is an educated (or willing to be educated) crowd (on this board) in the wild forget about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 I am just saying that it is what makes The early German MFC and Akro Ox, Oxblood glass different than Oxblood colored glass. And what I(and many others)find a good description and dividing line as to what is really Oxblood glass and what isn't. It can be seen under high magnification. and occasionally in good sunlight on some Oxblood without magnification. It looks like superfine aventurine. It appears others just consider any darker red-brown glass Oxblood. Thats their decision. It is a bit like what makes aventurine aventurine. Some folks call any sparkly stuff in a marble aventurine. some others don't consider the chunky debris that can be sparkly aventurine. No big deal. We are just talking about little glass balls made for kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Are there any more specifications,for it to be,"true oxblood",other than the microcrystilline copper? My next question would be,has there been any other,"oxbloods",contemporary,modern,or vintage,that meet the criteria,(or parts of the criteria,assuming its more than just the microcrystilline copper,and examination with a loop)? Im sticking with,"if it looks like dried blood"(litrarly),but its good to know these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 I like using the opaque crystalline trait as my dividing line. I would give good odds though that within the next 20 years anything red will be Oxblood. Heck because of ebay its almost like that now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARBLEMISER Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Didn't Peltier produce marbles similar to sunsets, that are refered to as imitation oxblood? I think I read it in a marble book somewhere? They have a darkish red brown band & a white vien on a clear base. It looks almost like it's brushed on? If I can find my camera & the marbles, at the same time I'll post some pics. In the thick of things. looking like dried blood. is the way I identify oxblood glass ( in a marble ) anyway! marblemiser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangley Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 Ok, so is Oxblood a color as named by kids? Or is it a type of glass? If it was named by kids, it makes sense to me that they were naming a color, and had no idea about microcrystalline copper. And if named by children, whose to say what true oxblood is? I think it's up to the marble collectors to open their minds and understand that we are debating something that was thought up by prepubescent youth. The only "True Oxblood" comes from oxen, and it's red, sticky, warm, and some people make sausage out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 One thing which has stopped me from presenting the info I have found about the use of the oxblood name in the 1800's is that most of it is interlaced in fairly technical material. People's eyes would glaze over. (pun acknowledged if not intended) But there really is a lot of material on copper-based oxblood from the 19th and early 20th century. If you are interested, a lot can be found on Google. Be open for variations in spelling, and for versions of the name as given in other languages. Here's a cool passage from a 1918 article: Of all the oxides used in ceramics copper is probably the most fascinating because of the extraordinary variety of color effects it may give. Green in an ordinary oxidizing firing, under the influence of a flame and smoke of a reducing firing, will turn sometimes red, sometimes deep blue or turquoise. But of all the color effects obtainable with copper, the most sought after and the most uncertain is high fire oxblood. ....Art World, Vol. 3, p. 154 The way I read it in many places, oxblood is a color AND it has a special and long known association with glazes obtained by the use of copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 mmmmmmm sausage .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glangley Posted February 21, 2010 Report Share Posted February 21, 2010 LMAO @ >>>> STEPH!! Steph likes sausage! I Love It!~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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