jlmoriarty Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Mon ~~ "It was stated that the reserve was $10,000 in this tread. If someone wanted to show an exaggerated excitement in this auction by bidding it to the edge of the reserve, would this really set a true value?" No. "Some bid an auction with a reserve up just to find out what is then, retract their bid." A revelation of the reserve price is not a consummated sale and hence no indication of value. The fact that a sale was not consummated speaks to the mechanism not whether the site (live or on-line) is a viable and fair auction. Ebay as well as a live auction house both meet all the criteria for a "market", in the technical sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmoriarty Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Kevin ~~ "isn't this just part of the market?" Yes. What you are getting at are the inefficiencies in the market. The more fragmented the market the less likely a "true" market value can be determined. It is fair to say (which I think is what you are getting at) that the marble market has inefficiencies, actually it has many inefficiencies, BUT the initial question was whether or not ebay represents a true market place and if so does it therefore answer the question of the value of (in this particular case) a certain box of marbles. "p.s. there were only 9 bidders not 50. and these 9 bidders don't represent the entire community (thousands) of marble collectors" True. However what would be a more helpful to know is how many eyeballs where watching, not how many were bidding. The question being asked is: was it published (yes), was it open (yes), was it accessible (yes), was there a common currency (yes)... you get the idea. If you apply the same criteria to an auction at say Morphys, ie, only 9 (marble) bidders show up and place about fifty bids, the implication is that the concluded sale is not an indication of value. Those 9 bidders are the equivalent of the people who stand in the pit of the NYSE. I hope that makes sense. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Oregon Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Also, the person with the high bid may have bid $15,000 but since no one exceeded $9,900 besides them, that is the highest bid that registers. Although one thing I have not checked on for a while is eBay's procedure when there is a reserve. Maybe if the person had bid above the reserve, it would reflect the next increment above the reserve as their bid...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popeyecollector Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Alan, In your opinion which marbles in the box photo do you not consider to be original? And, why? Are they later Alley back fill or something else? Please share your knowledge and help us learn ... Frankly, in my view, the Akro salesman's box is a real show piece that can stand on its own without any explanation or conjecture. Respectfully, Big Indian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 I was kinda wanting to post this pic of the "Vitro find" box, at least to get the big picture of how the lid attached. Here's a link to another pic of the insides: http://i119.photobuc..._marblebert.jpg I can see some Vitros in it. Tri-lites and and a yellow jacket. Above the yellow jacket is a marble which looks either Vitro or Akro. I think it's a Vitro but there are a couple of moss agates which look like Akros on the ends of some swirl rows. There are some which look like I might ID them as Anacortes marbles if they were posted alone and if they had more views showing?? What is that red, white and blue swirly one? Bottom row, top position in the 3rd column from the left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Alan, In your opinion which marbles in the box photo do you not consider to be original? And, why? Are they later Alley back fill or something else? Please share your knowledge and help us learn ... Frankly, in my view, the Akro salesman's box is a real show piece that can stand on its own without any explanation or conjecture. Respectfully, Big Indian I printed a copy of the box and went through with a pencil and crossed out those I felt were not original to the box. This was an exercise that I took on just to satisfy my own curiosity. Lacking the box in-hand and the ability to actually handle and example the individual pieces - such an exercise will be inexact. There is room for error in both directions. Compounding this - the photos were softly focused and somewhat over-exposed... so some pieces were washed out. On the assumption that this box will be offered again (probably before too long) - I have no desire to interfere with or influence its sale. The box is what it is. I was aware of its existence about a year ago. Some of the background offered by one person in this thread is quite consistent with what I heard a year ago. I have no personal, direct experience with how the marbles which we tend to not associate with Alley got in the box - and those of you who know me know that I like to separate what we "know" and can prove - and speculation, rumor, hearsay and supposition. The latter just confuses the matter and doesn't build the hobby's body of knowledge. Its an intriguing box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Marbles Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Here is your chance....Buy it Now for 10K http://www.ebay.com/itm/Alley-Anacortes-Saleman-Sample-Box-RARE-ONLY-2-KNOW-150-Marbles-PRICELESS-/220895860226?pt=Marbles&hash=item336e6b5602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 p.s. there were only 9 bidders not 50. and these 9 bidders don't represent the entire community (thousands) of marble collectors Gosh, I am not sure the above is a true statement, but you guys decide. My observation of markets is simple. Buyers bid and sellers offer. If you are neither, then you either leave or stand and watch quietly. The vast majority of the time, guys on the floor say nothing unless they have an ax to grind. In a typical 4 hour trading day, the guys with the deck yell the most, putting orders on the market as they are received. Those who are interested bid or offer and the rest watch. Most members are quiet for 1/2 to 2/3 of any given trading day. So, on most days except during a :"fast market" most folks say little and yet the market is liquid and complete. There is no requirement that everyone bid or offer. The only requirement is that the order be shown to all via "open outcry" so that those with interest can all bid or offer at "open outcry." My conclusion of the auction of that box auction is that it was complete and those with an interest bid. It sure was available to one and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Also, the person with the high bid may have bid $15,000 but since no one exceeded $9,900 besides them, that is the highest bid that registers. Although one thing I have not checked on for a while is eBay's procedure when there is a reserve. Maybe if the person had bid above the reserve, it would reflect the next increment above the reserve as their bid...? eBay mechanics are such that if someone bids the reserve, it automatically becomes the high bid and shows. If however, you bid more that the reserve and there are no other bids, the bid that shows is the reserve amount , not the bidder's maximum bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Mon ~~ "It was stated that the reserve was $10,000 in this tread. If someone wanted to show an exaggerated excitement in this auction by bidding it to the edge of the reserve, would this really set a true value?" No. "Some bid an auction with a reserve up just to find out what is then, retract their bid." A revelation of the reserve price is not a consummated sale and hence no indication of value. The fact that a sale was not consummated speaks to the mechanism not whether the site (live or on-line) is a viable and fair auction. Ebay as well as a live auction house both meet all the criteria for a "market", in the technical sense. BINGO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psia-antique Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 Kevin ~~ "isn't this just part of the market?" Yes. What you are getting at are the inefficiencies in the market. The more fragmented the market the less likely a "true" market value can be determined. It is fair to say (which I think is what you are getting at) that the marble market has inefficiencies, actually it has many inefficiencies, BUT the initial question was whether or not ebay represents a true market place and if so does it therefore answer the question of the value of (in this particular case) a certain box of marbles. "p.s. there were only 9 bidders not 50. and these 9 bidders don't represent the entire community (thousands) of marble collectors" True. However what would be a more helpful to know is how many eyeballs where watching, not how many were bidding. The question being asked is: was it published (yes), was it open (yes), was it accessible (yes), was there a common currency (yes)... you get the idea. If you apply the same criteria to an auction at say Morphys, ie, only 9 (marble) bidders show up and place about fifty bids, the implication is that the concluded sale is not an indication of value. Those 9 bidders are the equivalent of the people who stand in the pit of the NYSE. I hope that makes sense. John Bingo! FYI..on the NYSE you stand in "the crowd" at a "post" on "the floor." In the commodities markets in USA, you trade on the "floor" in "the pit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jlmoriarty Posted November 16, 2011 Report Share Posted November 16, 2011 p-a speaks to the concept that markets be "open" but within that concept is another concept which he correctly alludes to and that is the cost of entry. The cost to stand "on the floor" (SORRY, LOL) where he has stood has real dollar costs associated with it. The cost of entry to an on-line auction or an auction house is essentially zip (excepting the cost of your computer and your monthly internet access fee.) It could be argued that the cost of entry to a marble show is considerably more than zip, prohibitively so to many. How many of you would go to Las Vegas if your transportation and meals were paid for by say, Galen? (I know he's a generous guy.) The cost to watch an auction on ebay is pretty cheap by comparison. The drive to Morphys is easy for you to calculate but probably more than turning on your computer and seeing what is being offered. I'm not saying any of this to be argumentative, but rather precisely *because* of the inefficiencies which have been pointed out in this thread how hard it is to put a value on any given marble at any given time. And the fact that the seller has now thrown in the towel and revealed his bottom line price is fascinating on many levels. Well, to me at least... Having said that however I would be happy to give my Christmas list to anyone who is interested. Feel free to email me privately. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I am doing great John, And I just won an "only one known" fairly famous box on ebay for less than 2000. Life is good. I wonder if Pete would want it back home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckEye Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Pastelish galen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 That would be the one won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckEye Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Congrats, can you please finally get some real good close up pics of those bad boys, I need to see turkeys and striations buddy! Sorry to get off topic of everyone arguing, please resume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I will start a new thread when they arrive and get photographed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast_dave Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Wheres those pics Galen? I deserve to at least see some close ups after you outbid me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Waiting for the box to arrive. I bet it will be here soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Alley Agate III Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 In July Bert had his sample case on eBay for a fixed price of $10,000. The picture here is from eBay. In July I was in WV and compared my case with nearly 3000 marbles dug at Pennsboro. Eleven rows of 5 in my case matched Pennsboro marbles exactly - color and pattern. Others matched in pattern but not color. Here is my detailed analysis of the Anacortes case compared to my case. See color code in photo. 90 marbles match exactly. 8 marbles match in patern but not color. 3 are similar but I am uncertain 49 - Pattern is different or there is too much white to see it. Since I sent the photo of my case to Marble Allan for his web site, and dated it 1948, I now think it is from Pennsboro production, thus pre 1937. The date my father received it was 1948. It was given to him as an "old" case I have another Anacortes case photo sent to me by Raelyn Dolton. It is a paper copy. The exposure is better. I will post it later when I copy it. It looks to me like a few non-Alley marbles have been replaced, interchanged or rotated in the eBay picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuckEye Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Thats really great information, thanks alot! It would be extremely helpful if you could pull out the rows one by one of your complete box (not Berts) and takes small group photos of each set of five. There are so many premium types in there it would be great for identification purposes and would solve alot of mysteries. You can get an idea from the case as a whole, but a close up out of the box would be awesome. This would help new and old collectors and might even help some of these types roll your way. For instance I found a superman type the other day and would not have known what it was without that sample box for id (top row 9th over from left) Just an idea Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Alley Agate III Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Alley - Anacortes Salesman Case photos by Raylyn Dolton. These are copies of laser prints on paper that she sent me. Some of the colors are not as accurate as I would like. I believe the photo from eBay above is more accurate for color. It has the rows numbered to match the single marbles (R3, R4, etc. in the file name.). The marbles have been rotated differently in the two case photos, and it looks like at least 2 marbles have been changed (row 29). Pictured are photos of a few single marbles (from laser prints). In the file name I have identified the row that they are in. The next Post has marbles that are supposed to be in the case, which I could not identify where they are. Also are 3 groups of marbles with row identified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Alley Agate III Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 More Alley - Anacortes case photos of single marbles. First 2 and the 3 groups have row identified. For the others the row is not determined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Alley Agate III Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 Here are 3 views of one marble from each row of the Alley Agate Salesman Sample Case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Alley Agate III Posted August 24, 2012 Report Share Posted August 24, 2012 3 views of one marble from row 8 to 13 of the Alley Agate Salesman Sample Case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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