Do You Think Of Vitro Conquerors As Being Veneered?

[Steph]

Supposedly, from what I have read, they don't quite fit into that category.

But do you think of them that as being veneered?

[cheese]

I do. Not the phantom conqs, but the regular conquerors are veneered in my opinion. What makes them not fit the category?

[Steph]

American Machine-Made Marbles says that Fisher of Vitro and Howdyshell of Marble King developed veneering at about the same time. (p. 95, top of right column, and p. 153, lower left column)

I don't see a year given in the Vitro section but in the Marble King section it emphasizes that this was in the 50's, as it would have to be if MK was doing it at the same time. The Vitro section mentions Blaine Lemon saying "that it took four years to get the veneering process perfected ...." (p. 158, top of right column)

In the Marble King section (page 95, bottom of left column), Howdyshell is quoted as saying that Marble King started veneering in 1956 or 1957.

So that's more than 10 years after Conquerors were introduced.

[lstmmrbls]

I do not, Not in the same way the Early MKs were completely covered in a skin of multiple colors in a pattern. When I think of the word veneer I think of something with a surface different than the substrate. Not just a small area of that surface. And not with the way so much of the opaque glass enters the marble at times.

[cheese]

So the entire base of the marble should be covered with another glass to be a veneer? I know they aren't veneered in the same sense that some MKs were, but I still figured veneered would be the best description of how the color and white are on the base glass. Of course I based that on nothing more than my own judgement, so it is quite possibly incorrect. Maybe even likely,

[winnie]

This is what i understand of a veneered patch,a layer of glass on top of a substrate of glass,how they made that is beyond me.

Here's an example of a veneered patch.

[ann]

I don't know enough about Vitros to answer the question, but imo the whole surface of the marble desn't have to be veneered for the marble to be classified as a veneered one.

Once something goes beneath the substrate, into the base glass, then you're talking something else.

[I'llhavethat1]

Delving into something I don't know much about, any pics of the Vitro Conquerers in question?

[cheese]

I'm not an authority, so this may not be accurate. My take is... on that one shown... I'd have said the patch was veneered over the base. Looks like this one has some issue with the expansion/contraction coefficient of the glass and it shows how it was a thin veneer over the base where it separated. I think of veneer in woodworking terms. Like particle board with oak veneer over it. It's a thin layer, usually of a preferred material, bonded over a base of lesser quality or less desired base material. In furniture, you could have a piece made of oak, with the oak being the main part of the piece, but with other contrasting woods veneered over the oak in certain places for decoration and contrast, and to save money by not having to construct the entire piece from the higher quality wood.. much the same as it is in marbles. With wood, it's usually done with an adhesive. With glass, it is melted together, which I would assume occasionally lets some blend with the matrix just like welding metal or any materials that are melted together. This would likely be exaggerated by how hot the two molten materials are when they are introduced to each other. I'm not familiar with how this was done by the marble makers though and I don't know if the term can be applied in marbles the same as it is in furniture. Conquerors, as far as I can tell, are basically a clear marble with a colored patch and some white veneered or somehow laid on the surface to decorate it. Similar to an all-red over a white base or a master with a thick brushed patch. I have some that had the color flake off just like the marble shown a couple posts up. I'll have to pull out the vitro box and look at them closer.

On veneered marbles, does the marble get made and then a veneer is applied over it? Or was the marble made all at once? I never thought about defining what is truly veneered and what is not until now.

[Steph]

I'd guess the inside and outside were made at the same time.

Here's a pic Jeff Hale posted which showed the thickness of Marble King's veneer. (Also showed difference between the appearance of Rainbows from different periods.)

[sissydear]

I don't think the veneering process is limited to a definition of how much of the surface of the base glass has to be covered. Veneering is veneering. Conquerors were veneered. Victories were veneered. Tiger eyes were veneered, etc.

[lstmmrbls]

Hope it is Okay to disagree with you Edna. I think of veneering as covering the whole surface. Like a tooth or piece of wood. Kind of like Websters below. I am sure many disagree and thats Okay. And I have to add that even Howdyshell did not consider marbles veneered with only patches put on a colored base.

VENEER

: a thin sheet of a material: as

a : a layer of wood of superior value or excellent grain to be glued to an inferior wood

b : any of the thin layers bonded together to form plywood

c : a plastic or porcelain coating bonded to the surface of a cosmetically imperfect tooth

2

: a protective or ornamental facing (as of brick or stone)

3

: a superficial or deceptively attractive appearance, display, or effect : facade, gloss <a veneer of tolerance>

[ann]

But if veneering is a process, isn't a marble veneered even if only a patch has been applied? What else would you call it? (willing to entertain suggestions for a term)

[Steph]

The issue is that while some of the 1940's marbles visually match our personal concepts of having been veneered, they apparently weren't done with the process which Vitro and Marble King described as veneering.

That process was developed in the mid- to late-1950's.

[ann]

Kind of like the difference, in another medium, between (1) painting a colored patch on a marble with a brush -- the early ones -- and (2) spray-painting a patch on a marble with a spray gun -- the MK and Vitro way?

[Steph]

Could be.

Or 6 or 8 spray guns. Maybe.

[sissydear]

It's OK to disagree Galen. I still disagree that the entire surface has to be covered. And whether it's brushed, sprayed, or whatever, the end result is an expensive glass melted on top of a cheaper glass.

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Im thinking veneering is an incorrect term to use on marbles.

Sure,some marbles have the appearance of being veneered,but I dont see anything in the process that is veneering.

The colors on the surface,were not applied,after a marble"blank" was made.

Now,Im going to apply some peanut butter veneer to a chocolate cake!

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

Just wanted to ad,,the closest thing I know of,calling it "veneered" would be when the marble that are made with the irrodesence,by spraying them with chemicals,AFTER the marble has been formed.

[sissydear]

Make up a new word for the process Griff. I would use a new word.

[lstmmrbls]

Whatever words are used I think the process of completely covering a marble with a thin layer of different glass is different than applying individual patches or wide stripes etc. And veneering is a pretty good word for the process of applying a thin layer over the whole marble. Howdyshell used a process for covering the whole marble in a thin layer and called it veneering, and quit calling it veneering when they went to just applying patches. So that word is fine with me if the guy that did it, used it. Look what you started Steph{LOL}

of course I have to ignore anyone at Vitro or elsewhere that used the term for patches

[mon]

Veneered furniture is not completely covered...back, bottom and sometimes the frame........just sayin

[lstmmrbls]

Isn't it usually used for the parts being veneered. (like thats a veneer on that table top}.........just saying

[mon]

is not the top just part of a table?

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

I dont have any problem saying it is a veneered effect.

I dont know what Howdyshell called it,Im sure he could have been wrong too.

Many pieces of funiture that were veneered,lets just say mahogany for giggles,useing the real wood for trim,and a veneer for the flat surfaces.

Its not an applied thin layer of color on the surface.It was a process that made it appear to be applied to the surface.There is a differance.

Its just one of those trickey words like oxblood.That word means one thing in marbles,but out in the rest of the world,there are more choices of what it considered to be an oxblood color.

I consider the marbles to have color,floating on the surface,and not a true veneer.