Is there any way to ID a maker/date made on this marble

[GoofyCat]

Just curious is there any way to ID a maker on antique German hand mades like this one or sulfides for that matter??

just got this one 1.57" and would love to know who made it. its now my fave marble of them all,

Thanks in advance

[Steph]

That's a good general question -- I'm not aware of a way to ID makers -- I'm not sure we could name all the makers of marbles like this.

But I'll transfer this question  to the main chat forum to open it up more generally for insights.

 

 

P.s., I can see why you like it.  It's lovely from top to bottom.

[ManofKent]

Lovely marble, but I suspect an identification is unlikely. There were at least five marble producers in Lauscha alone.

[ann]

Agree that it's unlikely.  Even when a few are known, like in Lauscha, there were probably others working for them in their "glasshouses" that were not identified by name.  But mainly, so many records (and lives, and livelihoods) were lost in the two world wars, that finding a lot of info on individual marble makers is probably unlikely.

Very pretty onionskin!

[GoofyCat]

thank you all

i didn't think it would be possible but had to ask in case there was something i missed in my research.

 

 

[Steph]

I'm trying to remember what I have by way of ads for German handmades.  Do I have anything from manufacturers?  Or are they all for distributors / catalog companies / other retailers? 

[ann]

The only names I've seen mentioned are the Greiners, father & son, I think, in Lauscha.  Didn't they invent the marble shear?  ManofKent -- do you have more info about the marble-makers in Lauscha?

[winnie]

Here is what I know:

Blechhammer  Müller's sohne

Ernstthal glasfabrik  Justus Müllers sohn

Ernstthal  Kühnert&Co

Haselbach,glasfabrik Wernerhütte  Gebr.Schuller

Lauscha  Greiner Vetters sohn

Piessau  Muller&Co.

It seems there exist company archives in Thuringen,till now they are not open for public,thats what I read about a year ago.

[Steph]

Thanks, Winnie.

[ManofKent]

51 minutes ago, ann said:

The only names I've seen mentioned are the Greiners, father & son, I think, in Lauscha.  Didn't they invent the marble shear?  ManofKent -- do you have more info about the marble-makers in Lauscha?

 

20 minutes ago, winnie said:

Here is what I know:

Blechhammer  Müller's sohne

Ernstthal glasfabrik  Justus Müllers sohn

Ernstthal  Kühnert&Co

Haselbach,glasfabrik Wernerhütte  Gebr.Schuller

Lauscha  Greiner Vetters sohn

Piessau  Muller&Co.

It seems there exist company archives in Thuringen,till now they are not open for public,thats what I read about a year ago.

Lauscha area - Seppenhutte in one form or another (factories burnt down...) mid 19th to mid 20th produced handmade and machine made

In Steinach there was Eichomshutte (only know the name)

In Haselbach there was Marienhutte (only know the name)

 

 

 

[Alan]

Cane-cut handmades were made by a simple and universal technique.  I'm not aware of a type or style that could in any way be attributed to a specific manufacturer.  Even if one manufacturer came up with a new design (which I'm sure they did) - it could be easily and quickly copied by others because the construction technique was always going to be fairly simple.

 

[ann]

Really good point, Alan. 

[lstmmrbls]

I believe the marble in question was made by Bernhard Glausmaken

[GoofyCat]

Thanks everyone 

[I'llhavethat1]

I've heard about a handmade with provenance passed down through generations from the original maker.  One of the guys around probably recalls more about that item than I do at the moment. 

Side-note and complete speculation on my part, but I imagine that if a 'hut' was set up for making Sulphides (for example) the technique and layout would be different than the rest of the other cane cut German handmades.  And if they got good at Sulphides, I can't see switching everything up to make Latticino's the following day. 

Raw materials (glass quality, colors, tools etc)  and skill level with the patterns might also be a way to narrow things down slightly  Probably a lot of tribal knowledge being passed along as well. 

Nice Onionskin btw

[Alan]

1 hour ago, I'llhavethat1 said:

I've heard about a handmade with provenance passed down through generations from the original maker.  One of the guys around probably recalls more about that item than I do at the moment. 

Side-note and complete speculation on my part, but I imagine that if a 'hut' was set up for making Sulphides (for example) the technique and layout would be different than the rest of the other cane cut German handmades.  And if they got good at Sulphides, I can't see switching everything up to make Latticino's the following day. 

Raw materials (glass quality, colors, tools etc)  and skill level with the patterns might also be a way to narrow things down slightly  Probably a lot of tribal knowledge being passed along as well. 

Nice Onionskin btw

 

Keep in mind that a commercial glass shop would not produce a single item at once.  The economies of scale (just as true in those days) and typical layout of a glass shop meant that they could easily and more cheaply produce several lines at once.  The basic resources (a pot of glass and a glory hole) can be used by multiple gatherers, finishers and helper boys at once.  A good shop has a ballet-like timing where they are doing their tasks among shared shop resources without getting into each other's way.  Cane construction is probably the most time-consuming task that requires 3-4 people for a bit.

There isn't anything in a small hot glass shop that would suggest that specialization offers a benefit.  In the end - shops are filling orders from wholesalers.

 

[I'llhavethat1]

Interesting point, but the basic resources for a Sulphide marble would be a lot different no?  Molding, inserting, etc. ?

Having several lines might explain that but if one 'hut' got good at doing something you'd think they'd get the orders and specialize on what they're good at.  Just throwing it out there

[Alan]

The basic resources for Sulphides would be the same - and actually far simpler.  They just needs to batch mold some kaolin clay figures in wood molds and then fire them and then leave them in the hot kiln.

Then a very small gather on a punty for half of the marble, cut the piece and drop into a half sphere cherrywood mold, the heatedt figure is dropped and then pressed in, and then another snip of glass from the punty - and then it is puntied and rounded in the same cherrywood mold.

No need for colored glass, cane pick-ups, cane pulling, frit rolls (onionskins).  Its actually a very easy process.

 

 

 

[Alan]

To the OP's question (and I'llHaveThat1's point) about provenance - I was mulling over what makes provenance (other than claimed word-of-mouth).  Then I remembered two original, unmolested handmade boxes that were sold years ago by Danny Turner.

One was an original Salesman's Sample Box (circa 1890-1910).  Note that (at least) the top row has labels that look like postage stamps - but with writing on them.  I expect that these describe the specific type for placing orders.  I don't recall if the box was labeled by the manufacturer - perhaps someone who has the pamphlet for #45 could look that up.

The second was inspired by I'llHaveThat1's point about sulphides.  An original sulphide box that sold in 1997.  The front cover does not list the manufacture:  " 1 doz. Glass Marbles - Figured.  Made in Germany".

 

 

I'm not sure this sheds new specific light - its rare that we see original handmade boxes - so I thought I would add them.

 

Alan

[GoofyCat]

7 hours ago, Alan said:

To the OP's question (and I'llHaveThat1's point) about provenance - I was mulling over what makes provenance (other than claimed word-of-mouth).  Then I remembered two original, unmolested handmade boxes that were sold years ago by Danny Turner.

One was an original Salesman's Sample Box (circa 1890-1910).  Note that (at least) the top row has labels that look like postage stamps - but with writing on them.  I expect that these describe the specific type for placing orders.  I don't recall if the box was labeled by the manufacturer - perhaps someone who has the pamphlet for #45 could look that up.

The second was inspired by I'llHaveThat1's point about sulphides.  An original sulphide box that sold in 1997.  The front cover does not list the manufacture:  " 1 doz. Glass Marbles - Figured.  Made in Germany".

 

 

I'm not sure this sheds new specific light - its rare that we see original handmade boxes - so I thought I would add them.

 

Alan

WOW is all I can say..

[I'llhavethat1]

Agreed, thanks for the insight Alan, interesting discussion.  Fantastic marbles pictured.  I don't doubt that Sulphides were made in Germany (sorry if you interpreted that out of my post). But it would seem that carving a detailed wooden mold, casting clay in that mold, and making a two part marble would take a bit longer than melting glass?  And if there were places that were skilled with the technique they'd have a competitive edge.  Kind of like how they don't make Ford and Chevy at the same plant (respectfully, of course)

[Steph]

I woulda thunk the figures would be made elsewhere and bought by the person encasing them in glass.

Wouldn't have expected the clayworks and glassworks to be at the same site.  

But now I realize I have no basis for that idea and might actually have seen an ad (or letterhead) which suggested otherwise.  

[Alan]

29 minutes ago, Steph said:

I woulda thunk the figures would be made elsewhere and bought by the person encasing them in glass.

Wouldn't have expected the clayworks and glassworks to be at the same site.  

But now I realize I have no basis for that idea and might actually have seen an ad (or letterhead) which suggested otherwise.  

 

That could well be.  If so - that would make the process a little simpler.

I guessed they would be made in the same shop because it is so simple and cheap to do - and the resulting figure so fragile.  But thats just a guess on my part.