Steph Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 What is the difference between a Joseph's Coat and an Onionskin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 21, 2007 Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Onionskins have a base layer of colored glass, usually white, or yellow, or panelled white and yellow. On top of that base layer, various stripes of (usually transparent) color are added. A joseph coat has the stripes of color, but there is no base, and most often the stripes are opaque. both onionskin and joseph coat are cased - that is there is a thin outer layer of the (almost always clear) base glass. .. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted December 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2007 Thank you. Very clear explanation. Just to make sure, are you showing an onionskin on the left and a Joseph coat on the right? (thanks again, much appreciated) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Yes, Joseph Coat on the right, Onionskin (with mica) on the left. Joseph coats, in addition to having no base color, are usually made up of threads that run from pole to pole, whereas Onionskins have outermost colors in a variety of streaks, blobs, and threads. The first onionskin is a very blobby example, and the next is an onionskin full threads. Some might confuse the latter with a joseph coat, but you can see it has a white base layer underneath the stripes. Some joseph coats will have many different colors apparently randomly placed around the marble, like the next two examples. Some will have the stripes organized into panels, like the next two. Sometimes the threads are so fine that it can take on a wispy appearance, like the next one. Joseph coats will sometimes have open panels, like the one in the last pic. The open panel ones sometimes have core threads, which leads some people to mistakenly call them submarines. There are some in colored base gass, and they usually have open panels too (otherwise one couldn't see the colored glass anyway). ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 The system wouldn't let me add my 8th pic to the previous post, so here it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinx Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Wow, Roger. That was an incredible tutorial! Thanks for taking the time. Elizabeth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Here's a couple of colored glass josephs (my favorite type). ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Oregon Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I have wondered about this one. I have had some experts tell me it is an onionskin but it sure looks like a Josephs Coat to me. However, I don't collect them - just have some for examples. Can you tell from the pics which type this is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 I'd say onionskin, and a very nice one. The base color is sometimes sparse or streaky which creates additional shades. If the base is really sparse, then it can get difficult to determine if it is a base color, or just threads of white along with the others. But your is quite clearly onionskin. Please let me know if you would like to sell it. ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Roger, I'll only disagree on one point... The name "Joseph's Coat" comes from the biblical expression for Joseph's coat of many colors... In traditional definitions (Before certain authors altered definitions to sell non-qualifying marbles for more $$$) a Joseph's coat MUST have 5 or more colors... You have some beautiful Joseph's Coats pictured, but you also have some beautiful marbles pictured as Joseph's Costs that are not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 22, 2007 Report Share Posted December 22, 2007 Sue, I agree that the name originated due to the examples that have many different colored stripes. But ever since I have been collecting people have been using the term for those examples that have only a few colors. I think the problem in adhering to your definition would be that there is no other name for the ones that you would exclude as joseph coats. ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmuehlba Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Hi all well some are some what easy to see but then others ??? Mike Joseph right ?? Onion skin but ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Road Dog Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 Here's a couple of colored glass josephs (my favorite type). ... Roger These look like Banded Coreless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisCamp Posted December 23, 2007 Report Share Posted December 23, 2007 I always thought onionskins were straight lines of color from pole to pole. Lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 24, 2007 Report Share Posted December 24, 2007 Its hard for me to imagine that we could not call this marble a Joseph Coat because it only has 4 colors. (Its one that Alan B is auctioning, .. link below). My understanding is that early on in the history of marble production, the onionskin required a base layer of white and/or yellow beacuse they were the only common opque colors of glass. Then different kinds of transparent surface coloration was used, sometimes full stripes, but more often pieces of broken rods, that stretched out to make a variety of surface shapes, jagged or blobby. Once more opaque colors became available ("English", bright colors), there was no purpose for the base coat any longer, and for the most part, joseph coat (at least ones with no base) replaced the onionskin. How often do you see an onionskin made with the bright, "English" opaque colors? Then a great number of variations appeared, including the use of open panels, and various strange core structures. Sometimes they take on an appearance of a latticinio, a solid core, or a banded clear, but they are all really a product of the shift to bright opaque surace banding colors (attached a pic below of a group of these that I was lucky enough to find as a partial solitaire set). I feel this was a major change in the nature of this type of marble, deserving of some names that reflect the change. Though I know it was not the original intended use, the term "joseph coat" seems to have evloved to designate this larger class of handmade. ... Roger Alan's Auction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'llhavethat1 Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 They certainly all share the same type of style/colors and fill in a "gap" between onionskins and banded coreless. Some examples ranging closer to either of those styles, but great looking marbles no matter what they're called. I've heard colorful onionskins (with bright opaque colors) sometimes referred to as clowns. Is it possible for an onionskin to be on a base other than white or yellow? ie: clear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 25, 2007 Report Share Posted December 25, 2007 I've wondered about other onionskin bases, but I don't recall seeing another color other than yellow or white. Sometimes the bases are translucent white, and sometimes with stringy white. Below are pics of a couple like that (3/4") that I found together. Also, sometimes the base of an onionskin has open panels. .. Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kokoken Posted December 26, 2007 Report Share Posted December 26, 2007 Why do so many onionskins have a core ? Some of these cores are fantastic so I don't believe they made them into onionskins to cover up the core. HELP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Maybe the glob from the last onionskin made, became the base for the next gather of clear to layer the next color on to become the next cane of Onionskins. Just a thought!!! Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunnersDad Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 Great examples and tutorial Roger! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 27, 2007 Report Share Posted December 27, 2007 I agree with Galen's idea that the core is sometimes started off with remanants of the previous cane. There is often such similarity between core and outer design. I bet many onionskins and joseph coats have cores that can't be seen because of there not being any outer open space. Here's a couple of pics. The first is an 11/16" mica onionskin, with open panels that reveal a mica onionskin core. The second is a 3/4" joseph coat with a similar other joseph coat inside. ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 It sure makes sense to me. Roger, Thanks for showing what I was saying. It could also just be the remnant on the punty from the last cane pulled off. Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 I'd go along with that theory, too.... In a production environment, speed and material thrift is a huge consideration.... 'Makes total sense.... Roger, if you work REALLY hard, I bet we can get 5 colors outta that baby!!! I'm counting the greenish / yellow in the center of the blue as it's own color... Even though it's probably a blend of the blue on the yellow turning it slightly greenish... It's so difficult to make naming things an exact science.... The problem comes when you break it down to include an obvious choice like this one... Then, the next one is only a little bit less like a "Joseph's Coat" should be..... Then, the next one and the next one..... Pretty soon, you've got a 2 color Joseph's Coat.... Soooooo, step outta the box and quit going by the names!! A marble should be considered valuable for it's own individuality rather than it's name.... I don't own a Guinea.... I don't like them. Their name & history makes them valuable. I've never seen one that turned me on enough to spend the "Going Price" for it (When I could spend that money on something I REALLY like!!) When I find one for a price that I feel is worth it, for how it looks, I'll buy it.... Buy what you like.... Names are a guideline and should not be the reason for the purchase.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest browse4antiques Posted December 28, 2007 Report Share Posted December 28, 2007 Sue, I agree with you about the naming. I don't think there could ever be complete agreement, or any solid definitions, but the names serve, as you said, as only general guidelines. Probably 20% of my handmades are such that they could be named in more than one way. It is often the characteristics that have no part in their naming that are the most interesting. For example, I have a 4 ribbon divided core that has the ribbons decorated differently on their two sides. (I don't have a Guinea either, when there are so many nicer marbles to spend that kind of money on). ... Roger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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