wvrons

Hi Steve ! I am Ron Shepherd and i am one along with Nola Morgan whom you let inside the Ravenswood Novelty factory building several years ago Nov. 2008,when you had it rented from the owner for your Mustang cars and car parts. I know you are the current owner. You also allowed two other people my friends from out of state inside the building not long before us. If the problem was with us or them i do not know. Maybe there were others before of after us ? I do know absolutely for sure that myself and Nola had no idea that nothing was to be removed from the building. If you stated that neither one of us heard it or understood it in any way. When we got to the one spot where a few marbles were inside the building. I know we BOTH of us ask you if we could get some out of the dirt. You said thats ok. You were with us both within a few feet all the time that we were in the building. You saw everything total that we picked out of the dirt. Yes i could put all i had in my pocket and probably did. We never hid anything whatsoever. I have six whole marbles nothing special and four or five out of shape bad,flat side,fractured half way through marbles. I also have eight ot nine small pieces of cullet. Two of the whole marbles are white base and blue common swirl marbles. The other whole marbles are white base and red common swirl Ravenswood marbles. You watched me take the same pictures as yours posted here and a few more of the inside of the building. I still have every small piece of cullet and every marble round or not that i removed from the building. I have always kept it in a small plastic jar with lid. I have showed it to many many marble collectors who have visited my home over those past years. It was special but only because it came from inside the building. It is all just common the more plain Ravenswood Novelty marbles and cullet. I will be in Ravenswood later this week. I will return to you or your house every piece of glass which i removed from the building. If it was me or us,i do not want to feel that i took something that you did not want removed. Even if you were there all the time and never made me or Nola any more aware of that. I have several hundred or thousand Ravenswood marbles for examples that i can use to help teach other marble collectors about Ravenswood marbles. Nola and myself seen you and talked with you several times in the year or two after we were inside the building. We always ask if we could visit the inside of the building again. Because you told us both at the end of the first and only visit that we could come back. Once you got your cars and car parts more organized so we had better access around inside the building. Maybe you being upset that some items had been removed is why you always put us off and avoided us. I had no idea at all until this that nothing was to come out. I will return every piece just as i found it. I do not want it under these circumstances. I apoligize for the misunderstanding by all of us. I will be in contact or leave the items at your front door.

Most that i have seen in these bags are 9/16 to 5/8 with the one large marble.

Thanks,hopefully someone will find something new or get some good of it.

I agree with Ric. Only the Paul Bunyan patch if you consider it a Ravenswood. I also agree that they look like no other Ravenswood. They look like Akro or Master. All i have are stories or accounts from the company owners family,and past employees. All of these that i could talk with except one employee said that the Paul Bunyans were made at Ravenswood. I am still not convinced 100% who produced them. We know they are found in original Ravenswood packages. The very first three i bought was from Safreeds niece in Ravenswood. She would only let me have three. She said that her uncle Safreed brought them home from the factory and gave them to her. She said they were still warm when he put them in her hand. Safreed's daughter Faye had them and told me that she watched her dad make them. She said he made them on a seperate machine at the pottery factory. She said he only made these on a saturday or sundays and not often. Rae Weekly grew up in and around the factory,i ask her direct and she said they were made at Ravenswood. I ask a past employee about them and she never remembered seeing them. But she was there in the later years and in packaging only. I have written information or story that the Akro machine was retooled and used later. The Paul Bunyans were packaged in mesh bags and plastic bags by Ravenswood. Local women in town sewed up the mesh bags. I only got to talk with one of those and she did remember the Paul Bunyan marbles being put in the bags but knew nothing of the production. We know that Alox had mesh bags which also contain Paul Bunyan marbles. Alox had close ties with Ravenswood. We know that Alox bought marbles and cullet from Ravenswood. But there are documents that also prove that Alox bought one inch marbles from Master. Were they Paul Bunyans or the sparkler cat eye type ? I do not remember seeing any Paul Bunyans dug from Akro. Or seeing any in the Hardy's collection. I ask Charles Cox in person if the Paul Bunyans were made at Ravenswood,he said sure they were. He told Mike Johnson that the Paul Bunyans were in fact made at Ravenswood. I have seen and have the Paul Bunyan bags that have a paper attached to the header that says These marbles laid untouched for years in Akro Agate bins until recently. Was this true or was it a sales promotion done by a dealer/jobber/collector ? Years ago Ravenswood marbles did not sell well or for much money but Akro did. I have never found one or seen one in a original Master or Akro package. Who made the one inch Paul Bunyan marbles is nothing but interesting stories. We have the marbles and the stories but no proof of who made them. Probably will never have any more proof than what is above ?

OK, just another storie . I am not sure what Mr.Safreed would haved gained with a wrong storie or lie ? Even putting the mans name in print that was doing the hand gather. If i said that i had a hand gather Ravenswood. Would you or anyone else believe me ? Just another storie. What would a hand gathered Ravenswood look like ? Proof is a big word for some and impossible for some others. Sorry all i have was a storie. As you said time to run. I can use my time better.

William Safreed worked at the Ravenswood marble factory for 25 years. Longer than any other person. He did about everything there,building the marble making apparatus,bagging sorting eqiuipment,running the machines,hauling cullet,about all the maintence work. I have a almost two full page local newspaper article from Feb.26,1992. In a inteview with Mr. Safreed he states,in 1929 a man named Ali,who we know for sure was Alley,came to Ravenswood WV to make marbles. Alley provided the marble making machinery. Safreed said."The marbles were gathered on a gathering rod and tripped into air shears.Safreed explained. He said he saw Russ Trowbridge making them that way through the window of the building. They were very particular,they wouldn't let you in the building to see anything. After two year operation someone accused them of patent infringment. These people came in and wrecked the machinery,tore it all to pieces,and destroyed everything. This shut Ravenswood Glass down. A short time later Turnbull purchased a marble machine from Akro Agate. However only a few marbles were produced before the operation was terminated again. In 1932 Turnbull ask Mr. Safreed to go to work for him and restart the marble factory. When Ravenswood Novelty Works(1932) first began production. They made thier own glass from sand and chemicals. But Safreed said the glass making didn't last long. The company started using scrap glass from Fenton,from Port Marion and Columbus OH. Red glass was purchased for BUDDY marbles in Muncy IN. At this time the marble business was seasonal. Safreed said . "We operated only in the winter time for the Christmas sales." Mr. Safreed worked at he nearby Trenle Blake pottery factory by the same owner for the next six years. He worked 16 hour days. Eight at the pottery factory and eight at the marble factory. In 1941 Mr. Safreed was back at the marble factory full time. He built additional machinery,new rolls were cast at a New Martinsville foundry and grooved in Parkersburg. This machine made marbles at a rate of 200 per minute. A second machine was made by Safreed and it produced 270 marbles per minute. By 1944 a third machine was added and Ravenswood was in marble business for real. Selling all the marbles they could produce working year round. Mike Johnson has always felt that the people who destroyed everything at Ravenswood was Akro Agate. My thoughts they were from Christensen Agate. Mr. Alley and Turnbull seemed to have good relations and connections with Akro. Alley always made swirl type marbles. This would have been competition for CAC. So was Christensen Agate and Ravenswood Glass making hand gathered marbles at the same time frame ? Maybe just some more wild stories by some old men ???

There are no known examples from the first two years of Ravenswood production. In a email a couple weeks ago from Mike Johnson he said. How nice it would be for both our wishes come true. That would be to find or have for sure 100% one of or a group of those early Ravenswood marbles. The Ravenswood marbles that have been dug are most or all from later years production. The factory doors were closed in March 1957. In the early 1970's the new owners wanted to rent the building for storage. They hired two men with a pickup truck from across and up the street to clean out or remove all the remaining marbles. The factory is near the end of a dead end street. The river bank is about 1/4 mile straight away from the factory,slight downhill through a grass hayfield. So for the next few days these two men hauled the ready to sale and ship marbles to the river bank. Then they filled in the water sump inside the building with floor sweeping dirt and marbles.The sump was probably used for the hot water from the shears. I have a few pictures of the sump and some of the marbles from it. You can find different older Ravenswood marbles in some original packages,at the Ravenswood cemetary grave marker,etc. But doubtful if any are from the first two years. Maybe someday years ahead,someone will be able to do some excavating close the building and discover some unusal marbles that do not look like they belong to Ravenswood production. The property was just sold again three or four years ago. The factory building is in decent shape and a nice lawn around it. The owners are younger,so it may be a lot of years before anyone will ever turn any dirt there.

I agree the first one is Jabo. The second one choclate and green is Alley. The third one is also Alley. Both are a couple of the more sought after large Alleys.

I see with 110 views you have only two replies.

Oh what a big can or worms to open ! Are you talking about swirl type marbles or patch marbles ? From my expierence i have seen very few swirl marbles that i can be comfortable in saying was produced 100% for sure by Ravenswood. Did you know that the earliest Ravenswood marbles,maybe the first two years,were all hand gathered ?

That bag is coming to WV. The auction ended normal,the reserve was met at the end. It is one of the most rare Vitro bags that i know of. The marbles are about as rare as the cellophane bag.

Any date with or for the sketch ?

I don't know of any frog. There are different squirrels. Not all are Alley. Does one of yours have a larger tail or a larger nut in the front feet. That one is not Alley. A list would be difficult because some have very slight differences. Check the Scottie dogs. One has more flat top ears and one has more pointed ears. Check the collars one has more noticable studs than the other. Most all of the known to date Alley animals are in the new Alley book. There is some questions yet about the frosted animals. Smith glass may have gotten the Alley molds or copied close the Alley animals. Plus Alley may have had more than one mold for the same animal. Plus molds wear with use. The research continues and i cannot put much in print until i am positive.

No thanks,i will keep the lamp. It should be here after dark today to make more light in one of the marble rooms.

I will take the truck to pick it up tomorrow.

It should be in my mail box in a few days.

This will be a large marble auction. Marbles from nine different collections and from six different states. Sorry but as stated on the auctionzip.com listing there will be no absentee bids,no phone bids,no internet bids, Live in person bids only. The auction is done by three people,the auctioneer,Walt and myself. We do not charge any buyers premium. All items are paid for before leaving the building. Walt and i cannot take absentee bids,pay for the items with our money,package and ship the items and collect the money later. Unless someone wants to volunteer to do this free,we cannot take absentee bids. Once we pay the auctioneer,rent for the building,the insurance,the printing and advertising cost,tax etc. Five days getting items ready for sale. There is no money to pay a staff to take absentee bids,collect money,package and ship items. Keeping the cost down helps sellers and buyers alike. Sellers get their money faster and buyers know exactly who they are bidding against,with less bidders to compete with. Bidders can bid more with no buyers premium fee. Actual live in person bidders only.

I like to enjoy what time i can have for marble chat boards. Not watch or be part of long drawn out arguements,opinions as some say,squabble zones. As some say over a $2.00 marble,that can and always does cause opinions or arguements to spring about for some. Long drawn out explaintions for every single opinion,thoughts or reasons have to be explained in detail. Which usually just extends or brings about more differences. But some opinions always get questioned in length and finger pointing why they are wrong or right. Most opinions usually never change in the end. Is it worth it,for a $2.00 marble ? Did anyone really learn or gain anything ? You wonder why many folks have and are more and more disappearing,stopped posting,give opinions,expierence or advice ? It is right here in front of everyone,and by no single one person. It is correct publish,print or type and some people will always not like it or disagree. If it is only one thing incorrect in the entire book at the time of reading it. It will be slammed over and over. But does every single correct thing done get the same attention ? So why would anyone want to do a book,publish,print or type anything ? I admire the ones who have done so. They have also all caught the wrath of many. More than one marble book author,publisher has told me"it was not worth it". Some have said,never again. Wonder why,it is right in front of us. When will one of you be doing a marble book,you have the answers ? Humans are each one different and can take printed words with many different meanings, Many hidden between the words and lines,the jabs are thrown and taken,correct ot not. Many times personal opinions are better off staying out of print. There is more than enough negative already. One negative can make a lot of positives disappear. It only takes one. It is simple,honey draws better than vinegar. I agree 100% sad very sad in my opinion. I also agree no need to continue. I also agree we should be done here. I can also disappear,i do not want to attack anyone or be attacked. Wonder why more and more are disappearing. I won't be around to help it out. Done Bye

Scott See everyone there Thursday.

What does it take to get it across that i have never wrote a book and why. I did not write,print or publish every word or picture in Everetts books or Popular American Marbles or American Machine Made Marbles. I may not agree with every single word or picture in them. But they are better than what was before them. Maybe it was Al or others on the long list who helped with American Machine marbles that stated the facts on page 77 ? But it was not me. Go ask those others on the list ! I am not about to put it in print that Heaton,Cairo and Ravenswood had oxblood in their marbles. Been there done that on chat boards and got the wrath for that. If you know they did,post the pictures here. Of course the bottom line for me is what i see as oxblood. I see some that i might consider for myself as oxblood. But i may not put it in print. Because i did not know there was a accepted guide for any or all oxblood with marbles. I was not aware that all other collectors had the same exact opinon what was deemed as oxblood. Maybe one of you should do the book on this ? Yes as usual here,things got way off the original topic. Maybe the original marble at the start of this is a duck. If someone wants to think it is Heaton,fine. Just show me another Heaton with the same swirl traits as that one. I don't think it walks like a duck,just because the colors may look like another duck. But thats just my opinion. I look at more than just colors for a identification. Show me a Heaton where the ends of the color swirl,stripe,ribbon,are straight across. As I said i can change just show me and change quick with good numbers of it. I can show you a few hundred Heatons dug at the site,and in original mesh and plastic bags. I have not seen the end of the swirls on Heatons that i have,look like the one on ebay at the begining of this. Somday maybe but not today will you convice me that i should not base part of my identifications on items that have been excavated. Where would a large range of marbles be today ? How many hundred have been identified because of where they were dug ? History from the ground has not always come from scienctifically excavations. Wen i do not have actual proof or hard facts. I have to go with the percentages. With all the Ravenswood marbles that has been through my fingers. I have seen them at the river bank,inside the factory,past employees,the familys collections,original packages,local cemetary. I have never seen that marble at river bank or any of the above. I am sure that i have not seen each and every combination that Ravenswood ever made. I have to go with what i have witnessed and the percentages. But i usually base it on more than because a couple marble people said it was such. Again as i said before i learned early that much of what i was told and led to believe was not all accurate. With what my eyes saw,what people with direct connections to the factory told me,it was different. Why would i post a primer on how to seperate WV swirls. If it was possible ? What would happen ? Same as above ? I retired,i don't need a full time job,tying to explain my marble expierences. Why should i try to change peoples thoughts ? That can be a major challenge. I cannot teach people to seperate WV swirls in words alone. That is impossible. They have to be in hand with lots and lots of time and a true determination to figure them out. No one will or can seperate all WV swirls. That also is impossible.

You say Dave identified your white base green and oxblood as Champion. But when i say he identifdied the other marble as Champion and not Ravenswood. That is not good enough. Are Daves identifications all 100% ? Of course not,no ones are 100% if they do any amounts. You have proved my point,when minds are made up,sometimes nothing will change it. Yes EVERYBODY needs to remain open minded. What i deem as oxblood today is what many people right here argued with me for years as what oxblood was to them. Now years later there are several different types,colors,etc. Plus done by most of or all the WV swirl companies. I will be watching for a Ravenswood with oxblood,just like i have for 15 years. If you find it i would like to know and why it is Ravenswood. Did Jabo make or have oxblood in their marbles ? I would like to make sure that i have that correct. Glad that i now know there is a much wider range for oxblood. I can change my thoughts on this today. I may print this so i can refer people to it for oxblood questions. I now have a lot of WV swirls with oxblood. AGAIN no one is going to get every identifictaion correct,including Dave and or myself. They are your marbles call them what ever you like. Why ask a opinion for a identification if you already know and your mind is set on what it is. All this for a $5.00 to $15.00 marble or marbles in question. This is crazy ! Why would anyone want to talk about WV swirls at any gathering ? Everyone already knows all about them,it is in the books. It is always the same here,it will never change.

The book is Everett Grist's Big Book of Marbles fourth edition page 86,plate 209. The marble in question is last row center marble. In my opinion today,it was produced by Champion. That can change with more or new evidence. As i said,they have never been found at the Ravenswood river bank. Not in any original Ravenswood package that i have seen. Which is in the hundreds or thousands. Not in any of the big wharehouse find that i have or seen from Marlow Peterson or David Chamberlian. But i have seen them in Champion bags. But Champion packaged several different companies marbles. Dave McCullogh confirmed that these and some others that people consider Ravenswoods were made while he was at Champion. Every one i have seen has a nice slick shine to it. I have yet to find one that was not mint or very very close. Super bright colors,much more than most Ravenswoods This also applies to all that Dave said were made at Champion while he was there. So i am not 100% convinced they are Ravenswood. If there is some other proof or things that place these with Ravenswood,i am always looking and listening. I can change tomorrow,just convince me. Why it got in this book as Ravenswood ? This book as with many or all is not 100% correct. This is not the only plate that has a wrong marble in it. Plus some has changed with new and better information since it was published. The picture of this plate is the same exact one also used in the earlier third edition. All the plates with WV swirls are the same as the thiird edition. I had no control over this. Everett was in bad health and the fourth edition was put together with very much the same material from the third edition. The only thing that he insisted that i help him with for the fourth edition was the expanded Champion furnace section. He didn't have much time to make a lot of changes or new additions to the last book. How this marble got in the Ravenswood plate. Everett had me buy and put together all the swirl marbles for the third edition. I then had to ship them to him in TN for the pictures. I put each company in seperate 35 count bubble packs. I labeled each one and put a rubber band around it. I shipped them to Everett. He called a few days later saying Ron we have a problem. He explained that he could not help it but he had to look at them. So he took the marbles out of the bubble packs. He had them ixed and could not seperate them correct. So he had to ship them back to me. I sorted them all again. This time i stapled each of the bubble packs closed. He received them and took them to KY to the publisher for pictures. While they had them they lost some of the complete bubble packs. I shipped Everrett more. He took them to KY again. He would stay there with the marbles until done. He called and said i don't know what we are going to do. The photographer and Everett had the bubble packs open on a table while taking pictures. The open bubble packs got knocked onto the floor. Once again Everett shipped the mixed marbles back to me. I sorted them again and shipped them back. He took them to KY had the pictures done. He sent me the proofs and ask me if they were correct. I went through them and they were not all correct. But the overwhelming big majority were. I could not convince Everett to redo this again,or to leave the incorrect ones out of the book. It was near publish deadline and not enough time for big changes to page layouts. So some of the plates or pictures of WV swirl marbles is not 100% correct. The same year the third edition book came out,i did post several corrections to some of the pictures. But that is not going to get to every person who ownes one of those books today. The book was not 100% in my control. This and a long list of reasons is why i have never to date published any book. One of the other reasons is no matter how the book turns out. Someone or several will always tear it down,and disagree with it. Mike Johnson has told me face to face,more than once,that he would never ever be involved in doing another marble book. I wonder why ??????? As i said early everything in the marble books is not all 100% correct. Especially as time goes by. This is all more examples of why i am slowing down identifing marbles. I still do what i can for some but i am not doing it like i once did. My future plans are to even slow down more at it. I am tired of trying to explain every little detail why i give my opinion that a marble was produced by a certian company. Give me yours why do you think or what is your evidence or reason to believe it is a Ravenswood or whatever ? We may not agree,but there is nothing wrong with that. That is what will bring more actual facts or proof out sooner or later. I have been wrong many times before and will be again. I was the fourth person down the line to identify(all in agreement)what i considered a Vacor at a Sistersville show for a friend who bought it as a rare Peltier. He ask for and received a refund. But i caught a lot of bad comments over it. A identification that i was the fourth person to do the same. But i was the one who received or had the not so good negative comments directed at me. If someone ask me for a identification in the future and i don't give a answer. It may be that i don't want my fingers smacked again. Now that i have been the better part of two days,explaining why i say or how some things happen. I have other things that have to be done.

Just as i said in my previous post. I have learned not to totally rely on what is printed or what some say. I have seen too many mistakes and errors in all printed material dealing with marbles,for me to rely on them 100%. They can be used as one source for information but just one source can cause problems. When several different sources agree then it may be correct. I have yet to see any marble book 100% correct. Many times it may not be the authors fault. Publishers and printers do not know marbles or care. They print what the author ask for but also what is best for them and what will fit the page best. Sometimes maybe leaving out the most important sentance. Sometimes as the book is being printed,new and better more accurate information can come about. Yes i was involved for many years with Mike and Susie and their books. Nothing came out in the end as originally planned. Ask Mike,Popular American Marbles was such a disappointment to all. I have never and will not recommend it to any marble collector. As for Popular American Marbles page 67. The Heaton white base,green and oxblood pictured is one of the best versions of these that i have seen from Heaton. I posted some similiar to these and other WV swirls for years and was told by all the experts that it was not true oxblood. I was hammered for years about about true oxblood. That the WV swirl companies did not do it or make oxblood on purpose. If it was close oxblood it was a mistake and just happened. A lot like similiar post or discussions on WV swirls and aventurine. So after many years of checking WV oxblood looking swirls with 10x-20x-30x loupe. I agreed that it was not the exact same as Akro oxblood. Opinions on oxblood has changed a long way since the more recent books have been published. Since more people have been collecting WV swirls. Now there seems to be many shades of reds,and even browns,that people consider oxblood. There is a wide range of what people call oxblood in Alley marbles now. I am very cautious for several years to say Alley with oxblood,unless with close friends. Becasue some older experienced collector will always challenge it. The oxblood argument has been going and will continue for some time but without me. If they say or think it is oxbood,i will agree. If they tell me it is not oxblood,i will agree. I have dug and have the similiar marbles like pictured but i will no longer say it is oxblood. If you have that color combination of 100% known Heaton and believe it is oxblood,ok thats fine. But i am not any longer going to tell people that Heaton made marbles with oxblood. I learned when i was young that if i got my fingers smacked enough times for doing the same thing,that i was better off to stay away from it. What is oxblood,what does it look like,what companies had it,how many different types,colors,shades,on and on. For me Heaton did not have true oxblood. I have never seen a Ravenswood with what i thought was even close to oxblood. I have seen some Alleys that if someone got very very close like Akro oxblood,it may have been Alley or at Jabo. I have not and will not sell a Heaton as having oxblood for a selling point. I had very little if anything to do with the book Popular American Marbles. I did have some to do with the book Americam Machine made marbles. I will answer the Grist book question in the next post.

I am not sure either,i guess what ever fits. Just my thoughts or opinions. It was not directed totally to any one single person but anyone who visits here, Sounds like the marble was late but was as expected. So were any of the comments in the some of the above post a little harsh for this transaction ? Yes the replys from the seller were not the normal or as expected. Maybe some of the comments above were from past history with this seller ? But was this thread about past auctions or the current auction details ? Like i have said,once some peoples minds are made up,there is no changing it. Change can be difficult,but it does and will happen sometimes. If we like it,agree with it,or not. Glad it worked out ok for you.

Only a few things will slow or stop the above. When no or less and less collectors will buy any marble from them. When the true incorrect things they do are brought to the attention of collectors. When people are not afraid to post true feedback. When they are flooded with messages. Know who you are dealing with. There are a lot of collectors named Bill. It is not Bill Bass,Bill Tite,Bill McCaleb etc.. We need to be careful assuming. Mibcapper may feel results of this now. The marble collecting world is small and all our words travel fast. With that defense,it is up to us to take the offense and make collectors aware. But when doing that like any information. The information needs to be true not an assumption,disagreement based on hearsay,or personal attack. Will you buy from this seller again ? What feedback will you leave ? Spread the information but make sure it is true if you are going to attack someone. Or it can backfire big. It is much easier to attack with a keyboard than in person face to face. Use caution on the keyboard. It can resolve problems or also create big ones. With the insulting replys,i would not be dealing with this person again. They have probably lost several sales by this post. I hope the marble arrives and that it is what was expected. If it is not don't be shocked. The replys should be a warning ahead. Good luck.