Will Follow Bob's Advice

[winnie]

And start a new topic about the NLR's with aventurine,it was mentioned in another thread.

I also get the idea that it was done on purpose,precisely because it occurs frequently.

IMO it's hard to believe that it happened by accident,also because it's done so nicely and precisely.

Is it so that for every run everything that was used,has been written down by Peltier's glass chemist??

I've been thinking a lot about this and hope no one takes offence,that it's not worth it.

[lstmmrbls]

In all of the Peltier paperwork that I know of and have been lucky enough to read there is no mention any where in any way about aventurine or sparkly color or lutz or any other related names of formulas. I also believe that Mike never found any related discussions or mentions of sparkly or aventurine or what ever. And the paperwork is extremely thorough. I will continue to believe it was accidental just as it is in many cat eyes Vitro whities Japanese Pincers and I believe in the blue and green aventurine Alley Agates. Just my opinion. I believe in striving for the deep rich colors they were attempting to make the overabundance of metallic oxides formed aventurine in some cases. Simple as that.

[ann]

I also get the idea that it was done on purpose,precisely because it occurs frequently.

IMO it's hard to believe that it happened by accident,also because it's done so nicely and precisely.

Those are my reasons too. It's not all that rare in Pelt NLRs. I'm certain the glass people at Peltier (up to and including Sellars Peltier) knew -- through their own observations, if nothing else -- that "an overabundance of metallic oxides formed aventurine," and began playing with it. That there is no mention of it in the Peltier papers known to date does not prove the negative; there also was very little about employees, and we know a bunch of people worked there. And Ron found a chunk of gold aventurine at the Alley site. Just sayin.'

I'd guess it was accidental in the few Akro patches where it shows up.

[winnie]

I know that you and Mike have read a lot of Peltier paperwork,and there fore i can understand that you think it's not done intentionally and maybe thats true,but i still may find it hard to believe that it happened by accident,especially because it's done so nicely.

Couldn't it be possible that the use of aventurine glass was not important enough to mention,or maybe they wanted to keep it secret.Only a thought LOL

[ann]

In all of the Peltier paperwork that I know of and have been lucky enough to read there is no mention any where in any way about aventurine or sparkly color or lutz or any other related names of formulas.

I wouldn't expect that kind of mention. You'd have to go to the glass formulas and look for copper oxide, etc., and then figure out if the amounts given (usually in pounds) were sufficient . . .

[winnie]

Ann we typed at the same time,and thinking about the same on this issue LOL

[clydetul62]

I also do not believe it was accidental. Especially for black. It's actually rare to find a NLR black with no AV than with AV. As with the other colors though, blue, bronze, green, yellow red may have been more accidental to experimental. In some cases it's just a matter of the AV spilling into the next color. In some, like a blue zebra you will see the av in the smaller ones but not in the big shooters. Why that is, I do not know. Companies did keep secrets.Their secret may have been in the process of doing consistently and precision.

Here are 2 pics. The first is a real nice precision blue galaxy where the av doesn't stray. The second is what is more common that you see for a blue galaxy and that is what I call a "sloppy" galaxy. The av spreads out and in some parts spills over into the next color. What Ann is showing is a bronze zebra. Was that color accidental or experimental? I will go with the latter.

precision av

sloppy av spilling

[ann]

Great examples, Clyde.

I added one more view of my sloppy zebra, so you can see (maybe) that there are a few sparkles of green av in there as well. Looks like playin' around to me, too.

You don't mind if I keep staring at that precision blue galaxy, right?

[lstmmrbls]

Perhaps the glass has the right time period in cooling to form aventurine on the smaller marbles and not the larger?? I honestly do not believe they made aventurine glass and then put it into the furnace to make the stripes. The glass at Peltier was in separate furnaces for each color. Nothing at all like the added to the furnace aventurine glass that is being used in todays blingy machine mades I think that is one of the things that has lead to many folks thinking it was intentional and added. I just have to believe if Peltier was intentionally making aventurine glass it would have been mention in many places many times. In most cases adding aventurine glass into a furnace melting it to the point it can follow a stream and feed through nozzles of sorts would result in the aventurine disappearing. Similar to how the goldstone can turn to Oxblood in many cases when added to the furnace. The crystal are just not stable enough for a long period of melting and remelting in a furnace. I think the first time any of the aventurine in Peltier NLRs forms is when the marble is made and it is totally happenstance whether it forms or not. Sure would like to hear from Brian G. on what he thinks.

[migbar]

Contrary to what Galen thinks, and all that he holds dear, I believe that Peltier made some aventurine glass intentionally. I saw no mention of aventurine in Peltier's glass formula notebooks, with all the glass batch results and notes from 1936-1937. I'm pretty sure, though, that if we had the glass formula notebooks from 1928-1934, when they were actually making that black glass with heavy aventurine, that they used in all those zebra types, NLR's, and black patches, there would have been a notation "Wow ! Nice sparkles in that black glass !" They did have quite a few different formulas for black glass, one for ashtrays, several for marbles...I think one was called "special black" that had potassium dichromate, but no mention of aventurine in the notes. Likewise, there was no formula for, or mention of "pearlescent green", but I wager they made that on purpose, too.

I would also mention, that of all the aventurine glass I have had experience with over the years, primarily in kilns or over a torch, and just two days at Jabo, only goldstone could do the disappearing trick. I never had problems with any other kind of aventurine disappearing when reheated.

[lstmmrbls]

I wonder if any of the modern aventurine types(which are likely made differently than Pelt glass anyway) would retain the crystalline structure after spending hours or days in a molten furnace. I do not believe so. I only know of it being added at the last minute or last few minutes to todays marbles or used in the cooler torch flames.

[migbar]

I am fairly certain that the green glass with aventurine that Bullseye Glass Company has been making since 1974, and that they still make in sheets and rods for fusing, refusing, and for torch workers, holds up when reheated, with no change.

[Chuck G]

I kinda agree with Mike B and his thoughts on peltiers av. I would predict that more provinance information will come out later on with this question. I do posses a shooter peltier that has all of these colors of av in one marble, black, silver, red, blue and green, how would one discuss this marble if it was unintentional? Chuck G--

[migbar]

The black glass and/or colored transparent glass that has the aventurine in it, melts and flows at a much lower temperature than the much stiffer white opaque glass beneath it, and it tends to spread, giving the appearance of many colors of glass having aventurine, which isn't always the case.

[skoronesa]

Where does one find or get copies of these papers?

[clydetul62]

The papers were in a safe when Boyce Lundstrom bought Peltier. They are in a safe place since his passing. You cannot get copies. Hopefully they may someday make it to a book.

Edited sorry got name incorrect. Its fixed now.

[IowaMarble]

*Boyce Lundstrom

[bumblebee]

Here's one with so much it looks more gray than black.

[lstmmrbls]

I had the local Medium channel up Sellers and he said it was an accident but he thought it was an interesting effect.

[Ric]

Did Peltier ever market aventurine or "sparkle" or anything similar? If they produced it intentionally and consistently, it seems they would have benefited by doing so.

[winnie]

I had the local Medium channel up Sellers and he said it was an accident but he thought it was an interesting effect.

LOL!!

[migbar]

Here is a solid color one inch plus marble with gold colored aventurine all over, and a .63" pearlescent patch

[ann]

I had the local Medium channel up Sellers and he said it was an accident but he thought it was an interesting effect.

That's not what he told me.

[ann]

And somehow I forgot to bring up the Alley swirl known by collectors as the "Shimmering Spruce." Nothing but green aventurine ribbons/stripes on a white base.