Please Post Examples Of Cac Exotics

[BuckEye]

I correspond weekly if not daily with the person who found them. I have no question to their validity. I've seen halves with dirt on them and chipped ones too, they were not all perfect. In fact the ones in the beginning were exactly that. I'm not going to explain again the whole story and yes, Mon, all of this came after I met with you at your house and we discussed them. I was not into them then. I'm all in now. We can have a beer someday and hash it out lol.

[lstmmrbls]

Marblealan actually had many beautiful marbles from that find in his personal collection and valued them greatly. He sold most off as he became ill.

[manddrakes]

Marblealan actually had many beautiful marbles from that find in his personal collection and valued them greatly. He sold most off as he became ill.

I personal made a trip down and talked with Alan in depth about these and other marbles and he stated to me that there where some unexplained questions about there origin, which was before his illness and he stated to me at that time he was planning to back off as well. Now I would like to see some proof of the dig and or the find!

[mon]

Marblealan actually had many beautiful marbles from that find in his personal collection and valued them greatly. He sold most off as he became ill.

This is just not true.....just before he became ill and I mean just before, he sold all but one of mine over a 4 week period. Another collector and mine were mixed over that period and the last of these he sold. I talked with him many times and he had none and still had his doubts about them. Yes, he had many at first but the shamrock marbles threw him for a big loop!

I swore to myself that I was not going to get involved in the validity of these again (I was the one who asked MC Marbles to remove my pic he posted).....and I truly don't know either way. But Craig, why won't you talk about this here? I'm sure most every member here would like to be informed. Can you at least explain the finder's accounts that you validated? thank you in advance!

[manddrakes]

I correspond weekly if not daily with the person who found them. I have no question to their validity. I've seen halves with dirt on them and chipped ones too, they were not all perfect. In fact the ones in the beginning were exactly that. I'm not going to explain again the whole story and yes, Mon, all of this came after I met with you at your house and we discussed them. I was not into them then. I'm all in now. We can have a beer someday and hash it out lol.

Could we see some of these halves?

[mon]

You can see them in the old posts if the pics are still up.....proves nothing to have scrap when making marbles! imo

Also, the scrap was a long time coming when that was a major point used for disbelief. All of a sudden....everyone was seeing them. fwiw

These folks were slick..whether their product was real or not.....they where creepy slick!

[lstmmrbls]

I understood differently in the talks I had with him. And I wish I had pictures but I am pretty sure he sold more than a few on Ebay listed as from his personal collection. Maybe I am wrong. I already went way further into this than I wanted to. Craig can do it if he wants. Is anything posted here gonna change anyones mind?? Here are some pretty CACs. Mon, those were badass.

[manddrakes]

You can see them in the old posts if the pics are still up.....proves nothing to have scrap when making marbles! imo

I agree... I have confirmation from a couple different sources in which these marbles came into existence and the glass maker behind them! I have some of the best Christensen marbles to be had and they are not Christensen trade mark colors, transparent and opaque bases.

[BuckEye]

I heard the glass makers name was Fielder, how about you, lol. Galen, maybe me and you can just trade them back and forth every few months. What do you think?

[mon]

Mandrakes, do you think you could pick out 95% of an Exotics vs Pretty CAC mix?

They knew who to show them to in the beginning and I'm sure they know who to befriend now!

I could decide...not change my mind because I don't know, in a heart beat if it can be substantiated.

I'm here to make sure people are aware of the name Exotic and the stink that still surrounds them. I have that one and it's better than the one sold on mibbage.com for $1300 and I'm trying to devalue these enough that the holders of these pressure this community to come up with a better story or the truth....or eat their hard earned dollars! if we stuck together, it would happen! So read my warning above because I'm either totally stupid (possible) or honest enough to lose most of $1300.....trust who you will. thank you!

[manddrakes]

I understood differently in the talks I had with him. And I wish I had pictures but I am pretty sure he sold more than a few on Ebay listed as from his personal collection. Maybe I am wrong. I already went way further into this than I wanted to. Craig can do it if he wants. Is anything posted here gonna change anyones mind?? Here are some pretty CACs. Mon, those were badass.

Nice halves now pictures of the dig and the people involved?

[manddrakes]

Mandrakes, do you think you could pick out 95% of an Exotics vs Pretty CAC mix?

They knew who to show them to in the beginning and I'm sure they know who to befriend now!

I could decide...not change my mind because I don't know, in a heart beat if it can be substantiated.

I'm here to make sure people are aware of the name Exotic and the stink that still surrounds them. I have that one and it's better than the one sold on mibbage.com for $1300 and I'm trying to devalue these enough that the holders of these come up with a better story or the truth.....if we stuck together, it would happen! So read my warning above because I'm either total stupid (possible) or honest enough to loose most of $1300.....trust who you will. thank you!

Yes, I believe I could. I dropped all of the exotics last year, because they do not belong to the Christensen family IMHO. I have a nice group of cobras and guinea also a large group of slags... some with up to four colors, most of the color is on the surface of the slag, which has me questioning the construction and makeup of the exotics.

[manddrakes]

I heard the glass makers name was Fielder, how about you, lol. Galen, maybe me and you can just trade them back and forth every few months. What do you think?

Not the name I heard... Come on...

[bumblebee]

For those who believe they are genuine, what are your theories about the colors and the low quantities? Would CAC have mixed up tiny batches of glass and run them through their equipment for just a few dozen marbles that they never sold or even gave away to local children? Wasn't it a lot of work to clean up and start new batches with new colors?

Maybe these were prototype marbles near the end of the company's life? They are so beautiful it would seem some employees would have secreted away a few hundred if they were all being dumped, right? People had good visual taste back then too.

What are some other speculations?

[Shamrock Marbles]

This is just not true.....just before he became ill and I mean just before, he sold all but one of mine over a 4 week period. Another collector and mine were mixed over that period and the last of these he sold. I talked with him many times and he had none and still had his doubts about them. Yes, he had many at first but the shamrock marbles threw him for a big loop!

I swore to myself that I was not going to get involved in the validity of these again (I was the one who asked MC Marbles to remove my pic he posted).....and I truly don't know either way. But Craig, why won't you talk about this here? I'm sure most every member here would like to be informed. Can you at least explain the finder's accounts that you validated? thank you in advance!


For the record:

Here are a group of early marbles that I sold to MarbleAlan back in July 2004.
Alan wanted them to study the construction features.

Wonder what happened to them after his passing.
Wish I had some of these early types.

Sincerely,
John McCormick
"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

John, great looking marbles and would you agree that they are very close in design?

What did Alan have to say after receiving them? As stated, he was ticked off greatly when I first talk with him after either receiving yours or made aware of them.

Most of you believe these Exotics are hand gathered...right? How much of the design is contributed to the gatherer, glass, shear and rollers? Would you John be willing to give each a percentage seeing you have lots of knowledge in coming very close? Galen's stated about a 40x mag gave him conclusive evidence of origin back to CAC machinery. Do you think that's possible from a hand gathered marble?

Thanks!

[machinemades]

Here is my theori... Christensen had a very short life. Is it possible these were produced early and machines were quickly improved for less rejects and more production? Common swirls were produced. These might be very expensive to produce, require more labor and might not be profitable. Guineas, which had the similar construction, were very popular and might have been produced more than SO/ST marbles. I believe these are genuine. Why do all these have to be part of a dig? Couldn't some of them have been also sitting in collections?

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon,

You have a ton of questions! LOL!

Simple answers are very dangerous.

There is a very intelligent guy I know that uses the term "thoughtful speculation."
Thoughtful speculation can be used to support or dismiss whether these marbles are real or fake.
I have lots of thoughts on both sides of the fence.
In the court of law, you wouldn't want me as a witness for the plaintiff or the defendant.

Here is what I know as fact:
1) The laws of physics haven't changed for the last 100 years. Marble King or Jabo have to work with the universe today just like MFC and CA did years ago.

Therefore, what was done then, can be done now.

Now, to your questions...

"...would you agree that they are very close in design?"
Some do and some don't.
Some have looked and declared the lack of a side "s" is a giveaway.
Some have looked and said they can see fine bubbles from torch-working.
Some have said the lack of fine-lines and detail are marks of a contemporary.
Some have said the colors are all wrong.
Some have said, "Oh, crap!!!"
Some have said, "You need to sign those!"

"What did Alan have to say after receiving them?"
I didn't know Alan, but only talked with him twice.
He had a ton of questions (like you).
Alan didn't reveal to me his opinion or in-depth thoughts on CA Exotics.
He did suggest that I stay with modern glass and use aventurine.

"...you believe these Exotics are hand gathered...right?"
I think that Guineas were hand-gathered (not cane construction).
I think some of the early CA marbles were hand-gathered.
Manual manipulation of the glass comes first, then followed by automation.
It would be easy to conclude through thoughtful speculation that early striped transparent and opaque marbles were hand-gathered.

"How much of the design is contributed to the gatherer, glass, shear and rollers? Would you John be willing to give each a percentage seeing you have lots of knowledge in coming very close?"
Don't know how to answer this using numbers, but I'll give it a try.
Crazy color combinations (gatherer): 45.0%
Crazy swirl patterns (gatherer): 45.0%
Cut Lines (machine): 9.9%
Rollers (machine): 0.1%

Forgive me if I leave off here for comments.

Sincerely,
John McCormick
"Shamrock Marbles"

[VTAndrea]

Great thread. Keep it going.

[hdesousa]

The (unquestioningly genuine and very expensive) CA exotics Danny Turner was selling in the Running Rabbit auctions are the same marbles illustrated in Grist's books in 1992-3 and Castle and Peterson's book in 1992 and 1995. I wonder if collectors who owned some of these marbles bought into the new exotics, as there is a marked difference between them, more apparent when compared side by side.

The older exotics still bring good money when they show up for sale, as a few did at a Morphy's auction a year or two ago.

[mon]

first John....thank you for not side-stepping my questions and the depth you went into to answer them! I understand not touching the last question..but I think you might have....I'm not here to bash galen but he has tainted his word...with me and that conclusion comes with facts.

John, I often thought of you being at ground zero......now, I think....why would you come out after this release with these other marbles that are/were ahead of their time and close mimics of the same type. And, maybe that's what you want us to think! lol This will probably lap at your feet forever. I wish you the best!

Now we have few members that have worked very hard to be CAC experts and now become so smug! To isolate others one at a time puts them in a better position to argue and or convince. These same experts post every little conclusion they think they have found but they claim now to have the Holy Grail and it gets the old...I'm not up to it, tired of the dead horse and/or maybe ask joe blow. Really!!!!! I could outline a goal to be one of these experts ...smooze the current pillars, stay in sight, step on no toes, act as if I belong, don't say toooo much(might be the hardest for me), make it up as I go and never admit that I'm doing any of this.

I'm stealing this thought because it states my beliefs better than I can write.....What I can't understand is that whereas collectors of many other things, such as stamps, coins, etc. really scrutinize their potential purchases (and when necessary, obtain a true expert's analysis - microscopic, physical properties, etc), marble collectors seem to take the word of the seller and his cronies as gospel.

I agree with Mandrakes..Something about them just doesn't feel right and I just can't put a finger on it! I studied everything I could think of to prove my Exotic were the real deal.....the slickness or feel of these always seemed a tad off and of the 19, not one one scratch.

Not meant to hurt anyones feelings but these are MY FEELINGS and it is what it is.

[ann]

Something I'm curious about is the mention (a couple of times in this thread) of "early" exotics and "later" exotics.

Leaving aside the dithering over the name "exotic," for the moment (it seems to me that pretty much everyone who has collected vintage marbles for a while is familiar with the term, regardless of what Galen insists), I'm sure most of us would really appreciate it if someone -- anyone -- would post one or two examples of "early exotics" and "later exotics." For those of us who are interested but who have never seen the real things (whatever their origins).

Please?

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon,

You're welcome.

My timeline is pretty transparent.

In fact, one could argue that my appearance onto the scene was at the end of the Exotic reign.

I don't think I was the meteor that caused the extinction, but I'm sure I didn't help.

Let me share my history:

My wife and I married in 1989 and we lived in a 300 square foot apartment.

Since it was so small, we spent many hours away from the confines visiting friends and family (that had larger places).

My brother and sister-in-law dealt in antiques and collected Gonder Pottery (Zanesville, OH).

For a Christmas gift, I decided to find and buy a piece or two for a Christmas gift.

We drove everywhere in search for the elusive piece.

It didn't take long, that we started picking up other antiques to decorate our apartment.

Then we progressed to auctions to get better pricing.

Before too long, our apartment was bursting at the seams.

We started selling out of a booth at a local antique mall to move our inventory.

Around 1990, we went to an auction at an old tobacco barn in Weston, MO.

There was a long table of box lots.

One box interested us (flow blue plates), so we kept an eye on it.

(An old auction trick is to move items from one box to the next to avoid competitive bidders.)

Low and behold, some old fart moved something into our box!

I ran the bid up just to jack with him and we won.

He followed me when I grabbed the box.

Guess what he wanted to buy out of my box?

A jar of marbles!!

They weren't there at first, so I told him to get lost.

Put the marbles in a glass rolling pin and placed them for sale in our booth.

Marbles sat there for months and then the mall shut down.

We packed everything up and stored boxes and boxes in my parents basement.

(Remember, the apartment was too small.)

Bought our first house in 1991 and my parents told me to move the boxes out of their basement.

Our family grew and we bought our second house in 2000.

Moved all the boxes from the basement of house #1 to the basement of house #2.

When going through the boxes, I rediscovered the marbles.

Spent hours on Ebay trying to figure out what they were, let alone what they were worth.

While searching the internet (AltaVista) I came across Moon Marble.

Took the marbles over to the Moon to see if they could tell me what they are and what they are worth.

It was the Spring of 2001 and I had just missed the inaugural Marble Crazy.

Watched Bruce Breslow demonstrate how to make a torch-worked marble to a group of Boy Scouts.

I was hooked!

Left without having them look at the marbles.

Kept coming back and watching more demos.

Over time, Bruce and I got to talking.

When he found out that I was an engineer, he suggested that I build a marble machine.

Bruce pulled out this large laminated photo of a dual-auger machine (Mid-Atlantic).

Was he nuts?!

That would cost a ton of money to make!

Mess up one thing and you have yourself a +$20,000 boat anchor.

Man, I want to learn about torch-work, not build a contraption.

Later that year around Thanksgiving, Bruce introduced me to Cathy Runyan-Svacina.

Bruce unleashed her onto me and she suggested (in her enthusiastic way) to build a marble machine.

Out pops that photo again.

I told her that I would look into it.

Around December 2001 or January 2002, there was a discussion on Alan's board about patents.

Brian Graham was referencing the MFC patent.

I emailed Brian and he shared the patent number with me.

When I went to the US Patent and Trademark website and downloaded the patent, I was amazed.

Wow, this is simple. I could make that and without much cost.

Spent hours at USPTO downloading other marble machine patents.

Started preliminary design work the Spring of 2002, but there were a ton of unknowns.

The information in the patents were void of specifics.

What are the wheel diameters?

What are the shape of the grooves?

How fast are they spinning?

What material did they use?

Etc.

I kind of hit a wall and put the design on the back burner.

Traveled to Philadelphia for a family reunion that Summer (August 2002).

Afterwards, I took the family to Wildwood, NJ.

Stopped in at Wheaton Village along the way.

Paid our admission and walked in.

Went to the right and I could not believe my eyes!

Sitting outside under an awning (entrance to the exhibition hall) was a dual-auger marble machine.

We where the only people there, so I stepped over the plastic chain and started taking pictures and notes.

This was enough to break my mental log-jam.

Went back home and started finalizing the design.

Made parts at work and used some of my 2002 Christmas bonus to have the wheels machined.

The machine was basically finished by year end (December 2002).

Guess what? I have a machine, but no glass equipment.

Used a gift certificate that my mother gave me for Christmas to buy stuff at Bearden's Stained Glass.

Bought: 1 Hot Head, 1 glass cutter, 1 sq-ft of transparent cobalt blue stained glass (Spectrum), 1 sq-ft of opaque white stained glass (Spectrum), bead mandrels and some frax for annealing.

Got everything set up in the basement and attempted my first marble in March 2003.

What a disaster!

Nothing worked.

Only two gobs survived and they look like dirt clods.

One gob exploded during a test and the hot shards landed amongst the corrugated boxes under the stairs.

I thought I was going to burn the house down.

Went back to the patents and did more studying.

Got a real torch and a real kiln (around May 2003).

Started hand making marbles to get a feel for the glass.

Once I got comfortable, I went back to the machine (now in the garage).

It wasn't until the end of August 2003 that I made "round" marbles.

Demonstrated the machine at Moon Marble in October 2003.

Went to Hannibal for the December show to meet up with Chris Robinson.

Brought the machine along.

Went to John Hamon-Miller's shop to see Chris' machine.

Chris and I shared a table next to Les Jones on Saturday.

This was the first time I met Les and he let me handle some of his expensive guineas.

We talked briefly about marbles, but he kept his distance.

I got a sense he was trying to figure me out.

No harm.

Marble Crazy 2004 came in the Spring and I took some of my marbles to the Holiday Inn.

Went to Les' room and showed him my shoe box.

He looked them over and dismissed them.

We got to talking and he asked to see my box again.

This time he dug through and pulled out a handful.

Sold them for 50-cents apiece.

Probably spent two hours talking with him and Ted Adams.

Invited Les and Ted to come see the machine over at Moon Marble.

The next day, Saturday, the two showed up.

I did a couple demos for them.

They both looked at each other with wide eyes.

Les asked a few questions about patterns.

Went to see Les Saturday night.

He dug through my box again and told me that he knew someone that would be interested in these.

We talked more about marbles and machines.

A couple months later, I went to Amana (2004).

This time I had a pistol case with "better" marbles.

Left the case with him and went to walk the hallways.

As I left, he picked up the phone and told someone to come to his room.

When I returned, he had pulled out what he wanted and paid me about $5 apiece.

Chris' machine was delivered to me by JHM at Amana 2004.

Mark Mathews and Geoffrey Beetem came and saw both machines in the back of my minivan.

Took Chris' machine back home to cleanup, document and rebuild.

Sold sample marbles to MarbleAlan in July 2004.

Marble Crazy 2005 was the first time the general public saw Chris' rebuilt machine.

He did some demonstrations at the Moon.

Met Hansel there for the first time.

Sorry for such a long story.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"

[mon]

Wow.....very interesting and very funny! I'm glad you shared this with us and should be very proud in what you've achieved!

What can I say about timing!

May I ask.............

Was it your goal to mimic the CAC design?

How hard is it to keep the colors from blending or bleeding?.......a trait Arnold is known for.

How hard would it be to match the colors of known CAC colors and whip them off your machine?

Do you think or have you ever tried to put the "S" trait in a marble? If so, did you?

I've tried to keep my list short...lol!

Thank you again!

[Shamrock Marbles]

Mon,

"Was it your goal to mimic the CAC design?"

No. The goal was to build a machine.

The challenge to me was building something that I knew nothing about.

Remember, the machine came before I even started glasswork (proverbial cart ahead of the horse).

Who do you call if you have questions?

Much of this had to be figured out by trial and error.

My first attempts were to do slags (blue and white).

Then all the other questions followed:

How do they get that "nine"?

Can you do a cork?

What about ribbons?

How do you get those dots on a Guinea?

Why are some Guinea patterns stretched and others not?

Boy, that cut line looks like those on a CA.

Why do some CA marbles have one cut line? Why two?

Why is one cutline smooth (blended in) and the opposite one slight raised (rough)?

How are flames made?

The questions are endless (as you well know).

"How hard is it to keep the colors from blending or bleeding?"

It is a function of the glass, temperature and how the glass is merged together.

Torchwork has a tendency to overheat the glass and cause certain glasses to flow into each other.

"How hard would it be to match the colors of known CAC colors and whip them off your machine?"

Why match?

Everyone touts how Arnold used the same glass as Cambridge.

People have documented this.

Why not buy some Cambridge Glass off Ebay and bust up into pieces?

Why not get some dug cullet or broken pieces?

(Crickets...)

"Do you think or have you ever tried to put the "S" trait in a marble?"

The "S" is a result of the fluid glass twist between shearing actions.

No "S" on single cutline marbles.

Look at my avatar (bottom left view).

Look at the photo of marbles I sold to MarbleAlan (bottom right).

There is your "S".

It is a natural occurrence and it is not necessary to "try" to replicate.

The pattern of the glass, the engagement of the shear and fluidity of the glass contribute to this feature.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

John McCormick

"Shamrock Marbles"