mon Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 (Crickets...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted March 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Great info, John. Thanks for sharing in such depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 That was refreshing! Thanks, John! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 For those who believe they are genuine, what are your theories about the colors and the low quantities? Would CAC have mixed up tiny batches of glass and run them through their equipment for just a few dozen marbles that they never sold or even gave away to local children? Wasn't it a lot of work to clean up and start new batches with new colors? Maybe these were prototype marbles near the end of the company's life? They are so beautiful it would seem some employees would have secreted away a few hundred if they were all being dumped, right? People had good visual taste back then too. What are some other speculations? One theory that I find interesting (not saying I believe it, though) is that the guineas in particular, but also the cyclones/cobras, were gathered by hand and rounded by machine by Fiedler himself as a way to show off the colors he was proud of. It's another explanation for the low numbers of those types. And I realize this is heresy, but I don't think all the credit for CAC glass should go to Arthur Fiedler. As somebody up there ^^ pointed out, CAC glass came primarily from Cambridge Glass. Just something to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 I would much rather buy nice colorful Cambridge glass Shamrock's with a seam for $5-$25 than ever invest a few or even many hundreds of $dollars in the maybe/maybe not so called "Exotic" but that is just me. Marbles just do not seem to fit in the same category yet as pre-Columbian miniatures 200BC-400AD. Think I will wait a few thousand years before paying real big bucks for a machine-made marble be it old, rare or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mibstified Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Deja Vu all over again, almost 10 years later.............. http://marbleconnection.com/topic/2096-ca-cullet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted March 25, 2015 Report Share Posted March 25, 2015 Okay, let's flip this coin over and talk about the possibilities! First, let's talk about context and progression. The context is that CA moved to Cambridge, OH in 1927. MFC is defunct. Akro is going strong and has been producing their own marbles in Clarksburg, WV for about twelve years (since 1914/15). Peltier is starting to make marbles in Ottawa, IL in 1927. (Did I miss someone?) If you started CA, what would you make? Hand-gathered slags? Sure, easy enough at first, but how would you compete in the wholesale market against the likes of Akro? Akro had to be kicking out a boat-load of marbles. If you can't compete on price, what can you do to differentiate yourself? With all those beautiful Cambridge colors next door, how to you construct or develop a marble to stand out? How do you progress? Guineas? Glass workers have been rolling bodies of glass in frit for years (and still continue to this day). Grab a punty. Get a gather of cobalt blue at the monkey pot. Roll in frit. Reheat. Take to machine to be sheared. Repeat. The roll in frit and reheat adds more time than a regular slag, but the results are fantastic! Tired of cobalt blue, then use amber or crystal clear. Okay, what else do you offer? What about "colorful" slags? According to patent 1,828,216 (filing 1928): Prior to the present invention, most glass marbles of the type just mentioned have been made of glass charges gathered by hand, the gatherer collecting on his punty portions of each gather from two or more supplies of differently colored glass and manipulating his punty so as to effect a winding of the glass of a secondary color or colors at or close to the surface of glass of the base color. If you look close enough, some of the construction features you see in CA Slags, you can see in some striped opaque and transparent marbles. One could argue that a ST/SO marble is just a colorful slag! No argument from me. Okay, okay. All this hand-gathering is still too expensive. We need to automate. Well, at the time, the Hartford-Empire Company has a stranglehold on glass patents and technology. You don't have the capability to do something in-house, so you contact them to see what technology or equipment you can license or buy. Akro is the big dog in the industry, so Hartford is probably giving them the best equipment and technology. Akro corks hit the market around 1928/29? (Based on patent dates.) Your volume isn't high enough to warrant engineering a custom solution. That is why you see Peltier patent their own two technologies. You license basic "swirl" technology. Nothing sexy except you have some awesome colors. You can't look back. You can't afford to hand-gather marbles for resale. Time to move on. Goodbye hand-gathered guineas. Goodbye hand-gathered slags. Goodbye hand-gathered swirls (ST/SO). Even with automation, the competition and the market crash/depression bring an end to the ride. Remember, back in the day they were childs' playthings. Not objects of art as we see them today. Some food for thought. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machinemades Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 John, Excellent thesis! I have one question... I have a beautiful collection of your marbles that I can compare with some Christensens. There is a big difference... The glass is completely different just to begin with. Is the glass Christensen used available today if you wanted to make marbles with it? Sami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdesousa Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 John, Excellent thesis! I have one question... I have a beautiful collection of your marbles that I can compare with some Christensens. There is a big difference... The glass is completely different just to begin with. Is the glass Christensen used available today if you wanted to make marbles with it? Sami What John said in post #68: "Here is what I know as fact: 1) The laws of physics haven't changed for the last 100 years. Marble King or Jabo have to work with the universe today just like MFC and CA did years ago. Therefore, what was done then, can be done now. <snip>" John should have included the laws of chemistry with that statement. Collectible glass has been faked for centuries - from ancient beads to historic US flasks and everything else. Detecting good forgeries is a science; marble collectors should educate themselves. Here's a start: http://www.italian-glass.net/articles004.html http://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/forgery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Sami, I want to elaborate a little bit more on the glass color issue. When I started out, I used stained glass from a local shop. The cost per pound was quite cheap ($7-$9/lb.), plus they had a scrap bin where the prices were more attractive ($2-$3/lb.). The products they sold were Spectrum (96 Coe) and Bullseye (90 Coe). Some Wissmach, Kokomo and Uroboros were also on the shelf. I really like the Bullseye, because they have an awesome green aventurine. However, some of the Bullseye colors didn't stand up well in a torch environment. Spectrum had a beautiful red, orange and yellow that really popped. Later on, I started using Moretti (104 Coe). What I liked about Moretti, is that it had higher colorant densities and held up in the flame. Moretti was NOT designed to be a stained glass with light transmittive properties (unless it was a transparent). What I mean, is that some solid/opaque Bullseye and Spectrum glass still allowed light to pass through. It should be noted that I used colors straight from the manufacturer. No blending or mixing of colors to change shade or tone were done. When I look at one of my marbles, I can tell you whether it was made from Bullseye, Spectrum or Moretti. ----- Many years ago Bo Stiff talked about bubbles in the glass. If you read what he wrote, he specifically talked about torch working. Torch working requires that you put the glass directly into the flame. Oxygen mixed propane burns much hotter than Air mixed propane. This is what I call a "hard" heat. Glass with narrow cross-sections heat first and have a tendency to over heat. This over heating creates bubbles that can be seen where the edge or corner once was. Snip the end of a rod of Moretti and heat it. Bubbles will form at the circular edge. Most torch workers know to peel or strip this material away. Since I use stained glass, I need to cut the glass into strips (say 1/2" wide x 3" long). There are twelve edges on that piece to create a bunch of micro bubbles (approximately 14 linear inches). Not the best way of making bubble free marbles. If I were to fuse or slump the glass first, then it would remove the sharp edges and dramatically reduce the chance of bubble formation. There will be highly skilled torch-workers that will contend that they have the skills and knowledge to work glass and not create bubbles. I wouldn't argue with them. They probably do. Most don't. [Clarification: Bo is not here to elaborate on my comments or his. Bubbles do occur in marbles. However, I believe the bubbles Bo is referring to are those in a linear pattern - like one dot after another (......). Most can be found at the surface. Sometimes there are sub-surface bubbles that erupt through the surface when reheated. If there is a color on the top, then this color is moved and formed into an "o". Kind of looks like a volcano from the top. Sometimes a line of color will have a bubble through and it will look like this (===o===).] Now, what happens with a "soft" heat? I consider a soft heat as one generated from an atmospheric burner pointed into a chamber. Yes, a glory hole or a glass furnace. When using a glory hole, the glass worker doesn't place the glass into the flame directly. The chamber envelopes the glass with a penetrating heat. This soft heat doesn't create the tell-tale bubbles as noted by many. Glass workers that make stemware, vases and such in a glory hole usually start with a crystal clear, then add color by rolling in frit. Frit or glass shards have a multitude of sharp edges and a narrow cross-section. However, in a soft heat environment, the frit has the chance to melt slowly without the formation of bubbles. Could you imagine the quality of their product with a million tiny bubble? Just wouldn't happen. It would be safe to say that CA didn't do torch work. Their source of heat was a furnace/glory hole. ---- So, Sami, an answer to your question: The Christensen glass used back then is available today. It can be existing CA marbles. It can be existing CA marble halves or fractures. It can be dug CA cullet. It can be Cambridge glass bowls and candlesticks. It can be dug Cambridge cullet. Glass recycles. One could probably make some fanciful Akro Exotics!! Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hansel, My apologies if I slighted anyone with my omission. Yes, Chemistry hasn't changed in 100 years. I might add that the laws of human nature haven't changed either. Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Hansel, Do you have any "old exotics" and "new exotics"? If so, can you show and/or tell the difference between the two you stated? John, Cac was making beautiful flames and swirls in colors and design that would have been a nice niche at that time. It seems quite risky as a business imo, to have hand gathering stations along with a full blown marble machine. Have you held any of the new Exotics? If so, can you put your finger on the "just not right" button? My "S" trait question was a little mix up on my part......I know what it is(you and I discussed in the "very cool" thread) and you stated that some questioned that yours lacked that trait......So, have any of your marbles carried this trait? If not, have you tried to make this happen? Can you imagine.... Cac is up and running....these flame and swirls rolling off the end by the thousands ......ol' Arnold, who is better paid and the backbone of operations, sweating like a mule, making hand gathered beauties for a few bucks a box! Then, per the L. E. Alley book, they are setting up gambling, horse and dog races, prostitution, illegal liquor and a scheme to smash Alley machines. Then, Arnold looks down at his bucket of marbles and finds that he has crossed the line...these are just too pretty. He grabs the bucket, runs out the back of the shop and starts diggin like a mad gopher. Runs back in and takes a man's two dollars, pours him a shot and flips the mattress. A day in a life.... The feel I got from migs court stuff in the MFC thread is that management was management and workers were workers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 John -- Thank you for your post #82. You've put together beautifully some of the things I've been thinking about in a scattered and almost deer-in-the-headlamps kind of way. Ann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Do you have any "old exotics" and "new exotics"? If so, can you show and/or tell the difference between the two you stated? Just adding to mon in asking for "old" and "new" exotic pics. Again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 deleted....a poor attempt at humor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Yes, you too, mon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdesousa Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Here are a couple of pics of what Danny Turner of Running Rabbit originally called CAC exotics. - Sorry, pics are not the best. I acquired most these in the mid 1990's. The two larger yellow/orange/green transparent marbles in the middle of the picture are pictured in Castle and Peterson's book on machine made marbles. 1st edition (1992), pg.35, "Killer Multicolored Swirls", Row 3, line A&B, described as Christensen Agate, price range $40-$60. In the second (1995) edition pg. 35,Christensen Agate Palette, Row 3, A&B, they are called 'Electric' multicolored swirls, $200- $600 The 'newer' exotics looked sufficiently different to me when they first came out that I did not buy any. Perhaps they "got better" over the years. One picture illustrating many of these early 'exotics' is in Grist's Big Book of Marbles, in each of the first three editions, under the Christensen Agate section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedidoll Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't have many CACs and the ones I do have are just 2 colored swirls,,,but all of the ones pictured in this thread are sure nice "eyecandy"!!!! Thanks everyone!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 26, 2015 Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Thanks Hansel! Anybody else able to post earlier and/or later pics? I'd love to understand the "significant difference" between them, as Hansel and others here have described it. Although I doubt I'll ever fondle any of them in person, more's the pity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted March 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 Here are a couple of pics of what Danny Turner of Running Rabbit originally called CAC exotics. - Sorry, pics are not the best. I acquired most these in the mid 1990's. .... Kewl. Nice data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spara50 Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Some of my Shamrocks. I'll take these any day. First box are 5/8", others are 1". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Marbles Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Hansel, Thank you for your pictures! I rather fancy that red and white one. Mon, Yes, I have handled some exotics (say 20 or so). Some are very beautiful and some are too dark/muddy. There was nothing that made alarm bells ring in my head. I don't recall them "feeling" different. The ones I held appeared to be shear cut and machine rolled with no signs of a punty mark. I did not look under high magnification for bubbles or signs of torchworking. One marble did stand out, but it was due to the reduction of the glass surface. How do you handle a statistical anomaly from a group of statistical anomalies? Personally, I would like to have some, but not at the current price-point. I liked your collection so much that I probably have your photo saved on my hard drive in 10 places. They are simply beautiful marbles. ---- I want to clarify something. When I commented about a company transitioning from a hand-gathered to an automated system, it appeared that I implied this transition was rather binary. I don't believe CA made hand-gathered marbles on Friday and walked in on Monday to be fully automated. In fact, I think they were bi-modal. They probably continued hand-gathering while the automated systems came on line and continued to do so for some time. It wouldn't be hard to believe that there was a repair on the automated unit that forced them to hand-gather while repairs continued. Ann, The deer-in-the-headlights is something I see when I demonstrate to marble collectors. What I have typed in this post are some of the conversation highlights from the past 12 years. I've even speculated on the hush-hush: 1) A contracted excavator improperly removed items from the site. This violated the contract terms and could jeopardize future jobs with the city or county. Imagine loosing thousands of dollars in future contracts for some glass balls for which crazy people pay big money? Might not have enough other non-government work and force bankruptcy. How are you going to make payments on that back-hoe with no paying jobs? 2) Every employee at the old Cambridge/Christensen site know about those crazy collectors and the marbles, cullet and such. They all are aware about the policies of not digging or profiting from the stuff. Someone finds a box of goodies and takes it home. Wants to profit from the contraband, but it must remain quiet. They could get fired and lose there City/County government pension. Can't imagine a ton of great paying jobs in that part of Ohio. 3) They are part of a departed loved one's collection. There is no provenance. The decedent never worked at a glass factory. The features look like CA, but there is no proof. Let's make up a story and say they were found near the old CA plant during a sewer dig. Yeah, that's the ticket! Instant provenance. 4) Make up your own story/theory and insert here> (_____). Sincerely, John McCormick "Shamrock Marbles" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mon Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I agree with running both methods at the same time.....after reading some Peltier info. At that time, Peltier believed these specialty marbles enhanced sales of the more common or less expensive to make marbles. Just can't see Fiedler showing off but what do I know? If it was a success for Gropper & Peltier to make hand gathered marbles, more than likely, Fiedler tried the same at CAC. Thanks, but are they simply beautiful new $50 marbles or CAC $700 and up marbles? If only we could only answer that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ann Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I like all three of John's possible scenarios. Going off to work on theory # 4 . . . Spara50: What a nice box of Shamrock Marbles! John: Do you still have one or two for sale? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumblebee Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 One vote for John McCormick's marbles being superior to the "exotics" pictured thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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