Boy Scout Marbles On Ebay

[bumblebee]

I also wanted to point out that one of their Planters boxes that sold for $432 has a bottom remarkably similar to the two marble box bottoms I referenced above. I sent an email to a Planters collector to get their opinion.

[cheese]

Funny how the lower right corner of the boy scout box is worn through to the cardboard underneath, but it has a shine over the wear like decoupage or some kind of sealer was applied over it after the wear.

[bumblebee]

Edit: This is my edited post to ensure I stick to the facts and the important questions that are remaining:

By simple Google searches on these two sellers eBay IDs I found several blog posts from a respected Halloween collector who was even on an episode of American Pickers:

http://halloweencollector.com/blog/2015/2/8/vintage-halloween-die-cut-witch-spinner-party-game-fortune-teller

http://halloweencollector.com/blog/2015/4/16/set-of-4-small-vintage-halloween-die-cuts

http://halloweencollector.com/blog/2013/3/15/antique-dennisons-illuminated-silhouettes-black-cat-halloween-box-only-vintage

That Halloween collector claims both sellers have sold reproductions as vintage, and advises against purchasing from them.

An antique fishing lure expert confirmed without hesitation that the "black Americana" lures sold by both sellers are fantasy fakes, possibly made in Mexico. The sellers are free to comment as to why they are listing them as vintage--I am not implying they are being knowingly deceptive--but clearly the lures themselves are contemporary.

Why do several of the antique boxes (marbles and Planters) listed or sold by the sellers have a peculiar sheen to the top of the box, something I have never seen in any marble boxes in major auctions like Morphys, nor indeed on any of my own game board boxes from the 20s and 30s? All the ones I have seen are very matte. It reminds me and at least one other member here of the technique called decoupauge where paper is layered upon paper via glue or paste.

[I'llhavethat1]

Yeah, the font looked a bit weird.

[LouisCamp]

Okay, you all seemed to have poked the bee's nest. I just received this. Do as you may.

Dear Sir,

I have been advised about several posts on your site about me and my business, The Curiosity Emporium, by an associate that are very upsetting. I am referring to entry number 28 (and others) under the topic of Boy Scout marbles. This is a total fabrication and lies. Upon close inspection you will find that the link http://halloweencoll...ox-only-vintage and others do not even pertain to me in any manner whatsoever. Why this person would be so interested in what I buy and from whom borders on obsessive. I have NEVER bought wheat paste from the source he has listed or any other source, it is a flat out lie, don't you require proof from your members accusations?. I do by ink, toner and other art supplies, however if you would look at my Ebay store you will see that the bulk of my business is posters, t shirts and original ouija boards which require these supplies, but it is really none of his damn business. Someone needs to explain to him that images don't just appear on t shirts. This person is obviously trying to put me in a pigeon hole that does not exist. The fact that he has found a Planters expert that verifies authenticity, and he is still determined to find one that says other wise proves that he is purposely and deceitfully trying to create a case to fit his opinion, not the other way around. If you look long and hard you can find someone to say anything you want them to! .

I am the author of the "Book of Great American Firecrackers" http://www.amazon.com/Book-Great-American-Firecrackers-1900-1965/dp/098007424X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433114576&sr=8-1&keywords=great+american+firecrackers and I deal with the same kind of issues you do. FYI: On the subject of fonts being used to date anything, which seems to be real confusing to most of your membership. Trying to match this one to that one,etc., etc. Well over 80% of the fonts we use on our computers today are not new. They were taken directly from old typeface books used by printers from days gone by, which had 1000's of what we now call fonts but used to be called typeface. In other words when your membership says blah blah blah the Arial font that was invented in 1993, what they are really saying is the Arial typeface on page 118 of the 1890 typeface catalog of a Smiths Print shop, that was converted into a digital font in 1993. If you look though an old typeface book form the 1800's, you will see most of the fonts on your computer today. Don't believe it? Get a old typface book and educate your membership! If you are going speak with such authority at least try to know what the hell you are talking about.

http://www.amazon.com/Solotype-Typefaces-Lettering-Calligraphy-Typography/dp/0486271692/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433118465&sr=8-1&keywords=typefaces+solo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typeface#History

Bottom line: I consider these lies and false claims to be defamation of character, slanderous and purposely and maliciously damaging to my character and my business and I will not hesitate to take any action deemed necessary to defend myself and my business. I have an excellant 16 year reputation on Ebay with almost perfect feedback. While I certainly encourage discussion and debate on a site like yours, I consider this to be a personal attack without merit or facts. As moderator, I would think that you would have a duty to make certain that any and all accusations against a person or their business are accurate. I hope that you will seriously review the posts and make the necessary changes.

Sincerely,

Jack D. Nash

[Steph]

After my first reaction, I've been trying to keep an open mind on the box.

Still would like to hear more about where it came from. For something so unusual, it would be tremendously helpful to learn where this has been stored and how it came to market.

[Steph]

By the way, the Halloween link does refer to that seller. The seller's ebay name changed after the Halloween link was published.

Interestingly enough, both sellers whose auctions we're looking at in this thread are mentioned at that link.

I will continue to try to have an open mind. However, when something is so rare that it appears to be one-of-a-kind, sunlight is good. It is beneficial to both seller and collector. If the seller wants a rare item to sell for what it should be worth, buyers need to be confident. More information would be better for all.

Thanks.

[hdesousa]

I was planning to bid on the box, never having seen one before. After the seller pulled the auction, presumably in reaction to this thread, I contacted him about buying the box. Part of his response:

"after talking to the guy at the Boy Scout museum in Irving, Texas for an hour on Sat., I learned that indeed a marble premium was given out to all participants of the 1937 Boy Scout Jamboree. They have one on display at the museum. It was indeed called the "Silver Jubilee" and it was the 1st ever Boy Scout Jamboree.

After taking this all in and careful consideration and conversation with a Scout volunteer, I have decided to donate this box to the Boy Scout museum. The Boy Scouts were a wonderful part of my life growing up and I am sure they will appreciate it regardless.

Regards,

JD "

[cheese]

Sounds mighty defensive and since some of his reply is untruthful, it gives doubt to the entirety. I'd bet good money it's fake.

[n2marbles]

After talking with this guy and starting this thread for opinions he wrote me this last email,

Dear n2marbles,

Update. 1st, I am not a marble expert. I know nothing about marbles. I find things and I put them on Ebay, that's what I do. I answer questions, send pics etc to help the experts enough to make an educated decision on their purchase. The marble community has been the rudest bunch of know it alls I have ever had to deal with in my 16 yrs on Ebay They propose a bunch of preposterous theories to support their preconceived notions of expertise and demand everything short of carbon dating. Well I removed the box listing rather than have to deal with a bunch of just plain nasty people. But here are a few facts I am absolutely certain of that I am sending to you in the hopes that you may pass it on to your marble buddies. 1. Matching fonts used to detect fakes- virtually all modern computer fonts were created from old typeface catalogs dating back to the 1800's, it is totally ridiculous to think that you can judge the age of an item by the font. The Arial typeface of 1880 is the exact same thing as 2015's Arial computer font. Just look at any old typeface catalog, you will see all your favorite fonts. 2.My dad had this boy scout box in his possession well over 60 years. 3. The marble forum experts say there was no boy scout jamboree in 1937. Well it was canceled in 1935 due to polio and moved to 1937. (wikipedia) 4. And finally, after contacting the boy scout museum in Irving, Texas, I learned that indeed a marble premium was given out to all participants of the 1937 Boy Scout Jamboree. They have one on display at the museum, which is where box is headed as a donation. I am the author of The Great American Firecracker www.amazon.com/Book-Great-American-Firecrackers-1900-1965/dp/098007424X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433033907&sr=8-1&keywords=great+american+firecrackers and one thing I use in my work is to keep an open mind and realize I don't know everything there is to know about my field of expertise and never will.

Regards,

Jack Nash

[sclsu]

I messaged him a question about this item and he told me it was his fathers, who was in the boy scouts, and that the marbles were authenticated by a local antique dealer. I think the biggest thing that makes it seem fake to me is that there is no info anywhere on the net about this item. If it was a giveaway at the jamboree, there would have been ~30000 of these boxes would have been made, and surely at least one other one would have been documented some time in the last 75+ years.

[n2marbles]

I was taken years ago buy a Akro single marble worlds fair box. It had the same lacquer appearance and when in hand it was obvious. Luckily the guy took it back. We all wish to find the holy grail but waist allot of money and agony getting there.

[popeyecollector]

I think it is great that there are vigilant collecors who are skilled enough to recognize the work of dedicated forgers. Keep up the good work !

Big Indian

[Steph]

I wanna start a thread for posts showing bottoms and insides of legit boxes so that we can know what to look for. .... but that'd give forgers more information to help them be even more convincing.

[spara50]

This seller has ended four of his box auctions early. That's enough to make me not want to bid on any of them.

[lstmmrbls]

Both the boxes pictured look very fake to me. And as a whole, the responses and actions taken by the seller would lead me to believe they may have known they were not real.

[Steph]

The seller actually specializes in repro fireworks items and openly boasts about them being indistinguishable from the old.

http://greatamericanfirecrackers.com/

AUTHENTIC REPLICA FIRECRACKER, SALUTE & CHERRY BOMB BOX REPRINTS. PAINSTAKINGLY TAKEN FROM ORIGINALS AND MADE TO LOOK OLD. YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO DISTINGUISH THESE FROM RARE ORIGINALS.

The boxes in question look "off". Trust your gut.

Buyer beware, and all that.

[hdesousa]

Steph, on 02 Jun 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

The boxes in question look "off". Trust your gut.

Buyer beware, and all that.

Good research on the repro firecracker boxes!

Not so easy to do as you say, when one has a passion for the collectable, especially when you think you're getting a good deal and you're having a bad gut day.

A few additional common aphorisms you could add to your list:

Never give a sucker an even break.

If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.

There's a sucker born every minute.

Believe nothing, trust no one. (especially if you have more dollars than sense).

And on eBay, be especially careful when you see "private listing -- bidders' identities protected".

[Steph]

Yeah, the private listing also set off an alarm.

Didn't mean to say anything about your gut ... myself mostly ... wanting to give someone the benefit of the doubt but so many red flags have now been waved.

[cheese]

Those fake fireworks have the same treatment applied to them as the fake marble boxes. He says they are indistinguishable from originals, but he is wrong. This guy is a shameful con and he was embarassed by getting caught so he went overboard trying to deny his forging actions in true "caught-liar" fashion. I don't disdain someone who makes a good reproduction, but the instant they try to pass of one single item as original, they are on my s list.

[Steph]

Now I've seen a good photo of a legit G.A.R. box.

Big difference.

[bumblebee]

I think this would make a good Boy Scout project: Build your own fantasy marble box. It would teach them arts and crafts skills, appreciation to detail, and history. This way they learn not only how forgeries are made but how to spot them by comparing everything to the real deal.

As a final step, every boy stamps his box cover and bottom with his name and the year to prevent the boxes from being sold as forgeries. This of course is what any honest and decent maker of reproductions would do. Then the boys fill their boxes with vintage marbles donated by collectors. When some of those boys enter a collecting hobby some day, they will have a keen eye for spotting forgeries.