is this an end of day?

[Jeremysvt]

[Chad G.]

Josephs Coat

[Jeremysvt]

3 minutes ago, Chad G. said:

Josephs Coat

yes. the sparse use of color made me think end of day

[Chad G.]

On EOD the some of the color streaks don't go from pole to pole. Here's an example of an EOD Josephs Coat. On a regular J. Coat the color streaks will continue from pole to pole as yours appears to do. Wish I had some better pix but you can see where some of the colors end abruptly midway

EOD style Josephs Coat

 

 

[Fire1981]

I thought an End of Day was the last marble made out of the end of the cane.

[I'llhavethat1]

For me, it looks like some type of Joseph Coat pattern  (although some might say a minimum # of colors required). 

The whole "End of Day" terminology is another thing...I think the term was published in a couple marble books and imaginations ran wild.  

 

[Fire1981]

Well that answers that. My imagine went NUTZ  🤪

[Fire1981]

Kinda like Pelt "Tweeners". Anyone remember those ?

[Da Roberto]

33 minuti fa, ho detto:

. 

L'intera terminologia di "End of Day" è un'altra cosa... Penso che il termine sia stato pubblicato in un paio di libri di marmo e l'immaginazione si sia scatenata.  

 

I agree, it has always been a matter of debate

I think the terminology "end of the day" is quite subjective, even if it actually has his purpose.

[Chad G.]

EOD is a collectors term so as we all know it has become a matter of opinion !!  As for the EOD joseph Coats, the color is running out, thus the partial color veins & the term EOD, although they could have made them at any time.

[Jeremysvt]

3 hours ago, Chad G. said:

EOD is a collectors term so as we all know it has become a matter of opinion !!  As for the EOD joseph Coats, the color is running out, thus the partial color veins & the term EOD, although they could have made them at any time.

thanks for that!  I was just going by the books and being a newb.    thnks for sharing yours too

[Fire1981]

Do washed out colors usually happen at the end of a cane ? 

[Fire1981]

Or is the cane it's self just a washed out cane?

[Ric]

1 hour ago, Fire1981 said:

Kinda like Pelt "Tweeners". Anyone remember those ?

I kinda liked the "tweener" idea, I think it had its place.

[Alan]

13 minutes ago, Fire1981 said:

Do washed out colors usually happen at the end of a cane ? 

The problem with the "End of Cane" idea is that it doesn't benefit from a working knowledge of cane-cut marbles and the variables in trimming the cane in preparation for the next cut or a hurried marble-maker.  In the final analysis - it a cane-cut marble.  The construction of cane, pulling it, the opacity of the rods, how much the cane was pulled (decreasing color density), how heat was managed between cuts.... all this affects the appearance.

I think it better not to hope that a marble is a special kind/meets some special nuanced definition.  There are a lot of assumed, but incorrect, beliefs on cane-cut marbles.  Words are used to describe them that cause folks to believe in concepts that simply aren't accurate.

[Fire1981]

Let's see if I get this right. For example: Let's say the cane is 1 inch and they decide to make let's say 1/2 inch marbles instead of the 1 inch. Is this where the cane gets stretched and the colors get washed out. If they made 1 inch marbles off that cane the colors would be more vibrant?

[wvrons]

I agree totally 100% with Alan. They are cane made marbles. Unless you were present at the time when it was made. There is no way to know if it was the end of the work day.  Many different things as Alan listed can affect the final look of cane made marbles. Sometimes the colors may run thin or out near the end of the cane and sometimes the colors extend well to the very end of the marble.  Words and names are major tools for sales and values. But so many beliefs are not all correct. More of those are being debunked every year. When many of these thoughts names and beliefs came about. They may have been the best assumptions, guess or information available at the time. Some no doubt were for nothing but sales and profit. Just live and learn, new, more and better information comes out about marbles every year. We just have to stay updated and be willing to change. 

Let's see if I get this right ?  If the cane is originally one inch and they then stretch it to 1/2 inch size.  Yes the colors would be thinner and less vibrant.  Most people making cane cut marbles make the cane into the size marbles they want. The stretch usually happens after the cane is made to the size they goal for. They usually build the cane then a slight stretch or twist can be made on the end of the cane to make a twist in the colors of the cane. This very tightly twisted end is cut off and discarded. The cane is reheated again and then the separate marbles cut off of the cane. Sometimes near the rod end of the cane, there can be enough glass for one smaller marble. The cane is reheated then the smaller marble cut off. A one inch or inch and a half diameter cane maybe six or eight inches long can be stretched into six or ten feet long. Then the final cane might be one quarter or one half inch or less diameter.  Now it is to long to cut marbles from. So that smaller diameter long cane is broke into pieces and used later on a new marble cane for inside of larger marbles. I am sure there are several videos on the internet You Tube and other places that show cane cut marbles being made.

If there is end of day or end of cane marble ? Which is possible.  Then why is there not a first off of cane or beginning of day marble ? Which is possible. Six marbles made from one cane may all look very much alike in detail. But two of the six may look different in detail. The first off of the cane and the end of the cane. How many times have you seen, first off of cane marbles mentioned in a book or listed as such for sale ? That has had me scratching my head for over twenty five years. But I was lucky, the very first year that I was interested in marbles. Many full days, I watched Sammy Hogue make cane cut marbles from a twenty ton furnace.  All the time he was explaining each step.  Then after reading a couple marble books, I ask Sammy what "end of day marble" was. He said it is the last marble that I make today.  I felt dumb so I ask again, what "end of cane marble" was ?  Again he said it is the last marble I make from each cane. I ask if they were different or the same. He said, if I make all of them the same they would all be the same. He said if, I change the cane or do something different each cane will be different and each end of cane would be different.  So there are less numbers of, first off of cane and end of cane than the marbles from the middle of the cane. But there are always exceptions. The larger size marbles over two inch to four inch diameter. may only have one or two marbles per cane. If only two marbles per cane, one is first off of cane and the other is end of cane.  But end of day is only possibly known, if you were there at the end of the day.  

 Alan or someone else can clean this up and or add to if needed. 

[Jeremysvt]

48 minutes ago, wvrons said:

I agree totally 100% with Alan. They are cane made marbles. Unless you were present at the time when it was made. There is no way to know if it was the end of the work day.  Many different things as Alan listed can affect the final look of cane made marbles. Sometimes the colors may run thin or out near the end of the cane and sometimes the colors extend well to the very end of the marble.  Words and names are major tools for sales and values. But so many beliefs are not all correct. More of those are being debunked every year. When many of these thoughts names and beliefs came about. They may have been the best assumptions, guess or information available at the time. Some no doubt were for nothing but sales and profit. Just live and learn, new, more and better information comes out about marbles every year. We just have to stay updated and be willing to change. 

Let's see if I get this right ?  If the cane is originally one inch and they then stretch it to 1/2 inch size.  Yes the colors would be thinner and less vibrant.  Most people making cane cut marbles make the cane into the size marbles they want. The stretch usually happens after the cane is made to the size they goal for. They usually build the cane then a slight stretch or twist can be made on the end of the cane to make a twist in the colors of the cane. This very tightly twisted end is cut off and discarded. The cane is reheated again and then the separate marbles cut off of the cane. Sometimes near the rod end of the cane, there can be enough glass for one smaller marble. The cane is reheated then the smaller marble cut off. A one inch or inch and a half diameter cane maybe six or eight inches long can be stretched into six or ten feet long. Then the final cane might be one quarter or one half inch or less diameter.  Now it is to long to cut marbles from. So that smaller diameter long cane is broke into pieces and used later on a new marble cane for inside of larger marbles. I am sure there are several videos on the internet You Tube and other places that show cane cut marbles being made.

If there is end of day or end of cane marble ? Which is possible.  Then why is there not a first off of cane or beginning of day marble ? Which is possible. Six marbles made from one cane may all look very much alike in detail. But two of the six may look different in detail. The first off of the cane and the end of the cane. How many times have you seen, first off of cane marbles mentioned in a book or listed as such for sale ? That has had me scratching my head for over twenty five years. But I was lucky, the very first year that I was interested in marbles. Many full days, I watched Sammy Hogue make cane cut marbles from a twenty ton furnace.  All the time he was explaining each step.  Then after reading a couple marble books, I ask Sammy what "end of day marble" was. He said it is the last marble that I make today.  I felt dumb so I ask again, what "end of cane marble" was ?  Again he said it is the last marble I make from each cane. I ask if they were different or the same. He said, if I make all of them the same they would all be the same. He said if, I change the cane or do something different each cane will be different and each end of cane would be different.  So there are less numbers of, first off of cane and end of cane than the marbles from the middle of the cane. But there are always exceptions. The larger size marbles over two inch to four inch diameter. may only have one or two marbles per cane. If only two marbles per cane, one is first off of cane and the other is end of cane.  But end of day is only possibly known, if you were there at the end of the day.  

 Alan or someone else can clean this up and or add to if needed. 

makes sense!   what condition would you say this is in? 

[wvrons]

Very hard to grade marbles from pictures. To grade proper, need in hand with a 10X loupe is correct. From the pictures I would say near mint or maybe high near mint. which is good for a handmade. I see some small shallow chips, glass missing. Depends on how many chips, hits, pinpricks.  Mint old handmades because of age are hard to find. Most collectors are a little less forgiving with old handmades because of age, availability and price. Price jumps for a mint one. The type or style old handmade plays a big role in value of all old handmades. Solid core is more than Divided core, Onionskin and Joseph coats are higher than sold cores, blue or red Latticino is triple or four times more than the same white one. etc. The size comes into the value big with old handmades.  At 1  1/2 inch, 2 inch and above the value jumps high for each type. A normal two inch onionskin can be from $400.00 to $1000.00 easy.  Add mica and it jumps again. add more numbers of panels and it jumps again.  Not sure what size you have ?  Size is important with any marble for identification and values. A 1/16 of one inch can make a difference. Some collectors get down to 1/64 of a inch. Some collectors backfilling box sets want certain exact sizes. Some collectors may want a(example)white and red corkscrew of each different size they can find.  

[Da Roberto]

Yes, as I said in another thread, small chips and chipping are much more tolerated in hand-made than in any machine, due (as Ron rightly says) of their age.

I have seen rather high bids made even on German handmade with very marked chips

[Da Roberto]

And, I think there is another reason for the tolerance on these marbles, i.e. is the time taken and the skill with which they were made

[Jeremysvt]

8 hours ago, wvrons said:

Very hard to grade marbles from pictures. To grade proper, need in hand with a 10X loupe is correct. From the pictures I would say near mint or maybe high near mint. which is good for a handmade. I see some small shallow chips, glass missing. Depends on how many chips, hits, pinpricks.  Mint old handmades because of age are hard to find. Most collectors are a little less forgiving with old handmades because of age, availability and price. Price jumps for a mint one. The type or style old handmade plays a big role in value of all old handmades. Solid core is more than Divided core, Onionskin and Joseph coats are higher than sold cores, blue or red Latticino is triple or four times more than the same white one. etc. The size comes into the value big with old handmades.  At 1  1/2 inch, 2 inch and above the value jumps high for each type. A normal two inch onionskin can be from $400.00 to $1000.00 easy.  Add mica and it jumps again. add more numbers of panels and it jumps again.  Not sure what size you have ?  Size is important with any marble for identification and values. A 1/16 of one inch can make a difference. Some collectors get down to 1/64 of a inch. Some collectors backfilling box sets want certain exact sizes. Some collectors may want a(example)white and red corkscrew of each different size they can find.  

thanks.  it's hard for me to. determine hand made because I have not handled very many.  this one is .76 inches

[Tommy]

Thank you all for the great discussion...much learned lol I was looking at my handmades with the same scrutiny as my other mibs ...that's awesome information...

[wvrons]

If you learned more, it was worth the effort. 

[Jeremysvt]

THANKS ALL FOR THE CONVO!