Examples Of Exotics?

[Speed Racer]

OK, here it is. The story goes...a couple with Mexico license plates named Joe and Ann (still leaving the last name out for now) dealt out these mibs claiming they were from a deceased CAC worker who resided in California. Not sure if either Joe or Ann (Anne?) was the housekeeper or if one was actually related. There you go.

If they were the 'housekeepers' it might explain a lot. If 'related' to the deceased CAC worker in some way it might explain even more. Either way, a cache such as this was certainly just cause for all the hush hush at the time. Not sure how the Mexico plates fit in since the mibs were gotten out of an estate in California. My guess is that they held on to the mibs in Mexico for some time (perhaps several years?) before returning to the states to deal them out. They are gorgeous CAC's you have to admit that, right? Why hasn't this story already been told somewhere? Or has it? Hope I didn't just open a big can of...worms.

[ann]

Not this Ann.

But I wouldn't mind having some of the transparent ones. They're lovely.

But out of my league, $$$-wise.

[lstmmrbls]

there are some fakes for sure, but I have never had one torch worker that said he could fake the classic S pattern on the CACs that go from one side of the seam to the oppisite side of the other seam. Heck I don't think we will ever figure out how this happened and if I see it on a so called Exotic I am betting my money it an authentic CAC. This is the pattern I am talking about. It is highlighted on the blue marble and can be seen very obvious on the bottom left and even on the Guinea

[mon]

Cac 101..........why the big big magnification if it just that easy? I believe that trait in a 2 seam cac is known by all who collects them. But thanks for pointing it out! What traits are you looking at deep deep inside? It's amazing what the yaysayers ignore! mon

[VTAndrea]

I was asking about gb-antik because Popeyeman said this in one of the posts above:

One event that has not been mentioned is the hand full of marbles that came from gb in Lauscha several years ago. They resemble exotics in seam construction and patterns but the color palate is slightly different. They were quickly snapped up by American collectors and some were pictured in a recent book as CAC. Alan has offered them with a cautionary note. So what about those German exotics ???

[lstmmrbls]

Just like regular CAC 2 seamers they do not all have the S pattern. But when I see it I know it is a CAC fosho.

[clydetul62]

I believe popeyeman was refering to circus marbles. They were touyed as being cac. Then truth came out. Galen posted a pic of german machine. The biggest thing to look for in the german ones that the seam and design doesnt meet at the cutline like cac's do.

[clydetul62]

I never heard that story about the mexican plates.

Thelma was selling for her husband. He was suppossed to be a minor player at that dig that didnt get as many as the Art's.

[mon]

Just like regular CAC 2 seamers they do not all have the S pattern. But when I see it I know it is a CAC fosho.

Really?

Mig sent you pics of my exotics for your expertise and you thought some were questionable. My mibs are on the first page. Which ones did you have a problem with? Every exotic I had, had the "s" trait, and that's fosho. Why would you just not ask if they had this structure and be done with it? mon

[lstmmrbls]

Here is the Marble Clyde mentioned. Thanks again Clyde!

[1DanS]

I love it!!! All the proof I need!

I've about 10 of these - my newest and new favorite one arriving today - a nice variety. The new one wasn't offered by Alan so got it for under $200. I was thrilled having placed a high bid early on for about $300

All the serious CAC collectors I know (3 or 4) are convinced and willing to pay way more than me, at this point.

Under big big magnification, the structure of the exotic is indistinguishable from any other, universally-accepted-to-be-genuine CAC. I think the labor involved in faking one would be so great, any marble maker would be better off to make what he usually makes which may sell for less but wouldn't have to pass a barrage of scrutiny/sweat the pressure of having to pass off the "fake" once finished. I'm much more concerned over guinea purchases than these.

And no matter what, I think people will continue to trade in these and prices will go up if for no other reason than sufficient numbers of collectors are interested enough to keep pressure on demand. Maybe they only do want to believe it but that's been working for Jesus and several others for thousands of years, in some cases.

After all, the Emperor's new clothes were real enough for some time and you can actually see and hold these marbles.

might be just me or my lousy monitor, but the 1st two look kinda "messy" for cac's.

thanks.

[marboman]

[Speed Racer]

I never heard that story about the mexican plates.

Thelma was selling for her husband. He was suppossed to be a minor player at that dig that didnt get as many as the Art's.

They are not dug marbles IMO. If anything the dirt and wear issues on a few of them could be from the aformentioned CAC worker shooting a few of them with his kids. And why not? That is what they did with them back then. This story also explains why so many were found together at one time and place. C'mon, just look at them. They are beyond beautiful, so why would they have ever been dumped or hidden undergound like that? That is a crazy notion in anyone's book who have ever laid eyes on them. Think about it. This guy amassed quite a few during his apparent tenure. The dug story was likely made up to cover the real truth, harmless as it is.

[Steph]

I'm still not clear about whether the exotics are different types from what have been in people's collections before the year 1999. Sounds like some suggest they were but then others are skeptical about whether the same definition of exotic is being used.

If they were not in people's collections before their introduction in 1999 or later then that would suggest that whole runs were buried or discarded or smuggled out.

That makes me think of another thing. How big are these exotic runs? Are there identifiable types? Any feel for how many there were of any given type?

[lstmmrbls]

Mon, I don't make a definite call on hardly any marble unless in hand. And I believe something like that may have been said to Mike. And whatever I said it was my opinion at the time. There wasn't a whole lot of discussion about them.

[Speed Racer]

It is approaching the midnight hour here in the fiery-hot hell-pit called Austin, TX. Time to give up the names that go with the Mexico plates. BTW, I was never told not to repeat this information so I think it is ok to 'let it all hang out', as they say. You know I was letting it all hang out that night during a cool conversation between friends about mibs, when I happened to mention the Exotics. Someone in the room seemed to know all about it. Won't say who that was, but here is the name of the couple and pardon me if the name is misspelled. Has anyone ever heard of Joe and Ann Ealand? (eee-land)

Hope this helps. Now will someone sell me one on the cheap? I'm guessing the prices just went north!

[Speed Racer]

I'm still not clear about whether the exotics are different types from what have been in people's collections before the year 1999. Sounds like some suggest they were but then others are skeptical about whether the same definition of exotic is being used.

If they were not in people's collections before their introduction in 1999 or later then that would suggest that whole runs were buried or discarded or smuggled out.

That makes me think of another thing. How big are these exotic runs? Are there identifiable types? Any feel for how many there were of any given type?

I stayed up all night thinking about this and to answer your question, Steph, I don't think there were 'exotic runs' but rather there might have been only a few from an entire run that were this nice, and they must have been picked out and taken home. I think the secrecy today might be leaning more toward the tax man theory. "Let me tell you how it will be; There's one for you, nineteen for me."

Wow, the answer is simple when you just relax and clear your mind and try to remember that we could be dealing with any marble company from day one that had a few exotic 'outcomes' during a run. Akro for example had the five color Specials/Popeyes. What if these were (mostly) all taken home by employees on a regular basis? Imagine if not one really outstanding Akro hybrid ever made it into a box for sale! Now forward to present day...Then all of a sudden a large cache of em hit the Vegas showroom floor from out of nowhere.. Yep......lots a head scratchin... what are these?...too good looking...but they are corkscrews... sooo...never seen five or six colors before on a single mib...are they real?...too perfect... hmm... I'm not comfortable spending a lot...

So is it just a matter of time before we see an outstanding-never-seen-before-exotic-type-collection from a retired Akro Agate employee connection? Not really, since these CAC's are just better examples of known examples. Does that make sense? The five+ color Akros made it out for sale just fine it seems. Someone said it earlier, there is no telling what might show up eventually but some of our eyes are closed to this simple hypothesis. This goes for ANY marble company!

So maybe CAC employees cherry picked the runs to death. Wouldn't necessarily be the hot-glass workers, but rather the employees in charge of the final boxing. Even then the mibs were sorta hot, but not too hot to swipe a few here and there. Now we might be dealing with a couple of female employees. (No harm, no foul, please gals!) lol

This type of thing is frowned upon by all industry standards to this day and is referred to as 'death by a thousand cuts'. In other words, the owners likely had a 'no free marbles' rule in those days. Every mib went into a box or other packaging for sale. Of course, maybe it was all fair and square and any employee was allowed to make up a box of cherry picked favorites that week to buy and then take home. So eventually they saved all the best looking hybrids (Exotics) from ever being sold way back then?

[mon]

Mon, I don't make a definite call on hardly any marble unless in hand. And I believe something like that may have been said to Mike. And whatever I said it was my opinion at the time. There wasn't a whole lot of discussion about them.

1st, mike offered to send you a pic and I said ok only out of kindness to mike.

2nd, if you have a fosho trait, that would the first question IMO to ask back.....like hey, is this a corkscrew....well. is it green?

RE: what marbles did you have concerns over and why? They are the same marbles. please don't ignore.

How do we go from asking the frontline players to, I was told that it's alien poop?

Kokoken and Bill T have some questions that they have yet to answer, why? Kokoken also posted in an old thread, stating concern with sham-rock marbles and marking them. If they are so detectable, why? If Bill T. has one of the trusted eyes, what does he think construction & color wise? Did that play a part in him not buying? Do any owners of sham-rock's have the ground breakin "s" pattern?

Taking them home a few at a time.....why no flames?

If it was an employee:

How old is he/she?

Who's going to charge them with theft ?

How can they prove theft?

If it was tax reasons, why take checks or give your name?

If you would like these ? answered, have the nads to ask!

mon

[lstmmrbls]

Still would need to have them in hand. And this is a much bigger deal to many others than it is to me. I have 2 that may be considered "Exotics" . I will never be 100% positive they were made at CAC in the 20s-30s. They do not have the S. I was worn out on this topic many years ago. Either someone thinks they are real, fake or doesn't have an opinion. I don't need anyone to believe they are real or fake to sleep well. The lack of proof and so many side stories pretty much precludes ever having a factual declaration. This is almost like trying to find out who first called a corkscrew a corkscrew. Unless there are pics of folks digging the big group out of the pipe project I will be on the fence with many of them. But I would still pay 2-500 for nice examples that are not too far out.

[clydetul62]

• 
  Posted for Jeff Hale.
  
• 
  Doubt? 'layered sand' which is now called 'exotic' However the fact is Danny Turner also created this name too, When he sold the marble called "Layered sand" around 1996, in his 'Running Rabit' auctions. Also the name 'Red Devil'. It's not so far fetched that Danny also added to the collector names 'Exotic' in 1999. Which were strirated Guines. Rather than blotches of color in the typicial Guinea, the colors stretched across the surface in thin lines. Like the Layered Sand, Red Devil, his 'exotics' sold for an outstandiong premium. As is typical, once a name is created, a super price is paid. Sellers quickly adopt the name to everything imaginable or simular. While the 'exotic' 'layered sand' examples were also so unique as nobdy except the one person who'd bought the first 'Layered sand'
  
• 
  ["I have seen this layered sand in hand." my own comment, not Jeff's]
  

• 
  in 1996, the one and only. It's not so far fetch for them to be called 'exotic' as were the whole group, from 1999 to date.
  

• 
  Not to exclude the fact that,, within the caches of those sold, there were several examples that were no different than some of the striped opaques where were previously known examples,, and some one of a kind examples which except for those who watched the sales very close or were the first distributors of the groups.
  

I own two such examples, Both are one of a kind, both are directly from 2 different sources who live in Cambridge, Who were the original onwers from the start of the public disemanation which began in 1999.<p class="conversationItem 41511056" id="41511056" msgtimestamp="1314120226" senderid="jeffhale1">

• 
  Also, in contrast to popular belief, I also own German striped marbles, imported directly from Germany, Which are so wild,, except for color,, there's absolutly no way to tell the difference between a super wild striped CAC or any other maker.
  

• 
  One most important 'secret' as it were, Regarding color of CAC, Which distingushes it from contempory, or any other manufacture is the way CAC melted their color formula. The best examples, with 40x magifacation, show the grainy color mix, Frozen into the marble when cooled. It's as if CAC intentionally, did not 'cook' the formula to the degree where pure blue, yellow, orange, and more, could develop one single pure color. It's why CAC colors apear "electric" such as "Electric orange", the most commom blended color of CAC's.. It's not pure orange. Like Akro's and MF Christensen's, especaily the german ground pontal examples of Oxblood. the formula resolves with color separations, A grainy batch of color with multiple colors that achieve a special eye apeal.. Many of CAC's marbles
  

• 
  the colors, are not completely blended to achieve one single color..
  

• 
  This was how, when I first saw the marbles which later became 'famo', the group of German striped opaques, Which I examined before Smitty bought them or saw them for that matter, Known as 'Circus' Which they were extremely unique, very exceptional, So much like a CAC. the major difference was, CAC's, frozon, unfinished color and germany's solid color.
  

[mon]

Still would need to have them in hand.

Dodger!

And this is a much bigger deal to many others than it is to me.

You may need to calibrate your "bigger deal" machine!

I have 2 that may be considered "Exotics" . I will never be 100% positive they were made at CAC in the 20s-30s. They do not have the S. I was worn out on this topic many years ago.

Well, don't participate!

Either someone thinks they are real, fake or doesn't have an opinion.

I don't know!

I don't need anyone to believe they are real or fake to sleep well.

Thank God....I'm very happy for you!

The lack of proof and so many side stories pretty much precludes ever having a factual declaration.

Is asking questions a good way of gathering proof?

This is almost like trying to find out who first called a corkscrew a corkscrew. Unless there are pics of folks digging the big group out of the pipe project I will be on the fence with many of them. But I would still pay 2-500 for nice examples that are not too far out.

Take your ball and go home! mon

[mon]

Nice to see some of the stuff that gets ignored by the naysayers Honeybern.

All of you may think i'm being nasty but have only tried to offer my mib for testing, opinion on others thoughts and my questions. All the way up to Galen's above post.....that pissed me off! mon

[Speed Racer]

Mon, it's cool. We are all on the same team here. Even Galen has a right to come in and take his hat off. You don't have to like what he says but he has a lot to offer on CAC's and everything helps, big or small, as far as opinions, guesses, and or feelings. Remember it takes every kind of people. I personally feel you are backing him into a corner somehow, and this is how he is reacting to that. Normal for him. In other words, don't read too much into it. JMO He is just tired of the whole mess as far as the real truth behind the discovery. And if he didn't care he wouldn't be here.

I do not think he is dissing them. He stated earlier (in so many words) that it is the whole picture that is hard to swallow and not as much as the individual mibs themselves. You have to admit that the sellers went about this in a very peculiar way and are continuing to do so. The problem seems not to be so much about the authenticity but rather everyone just wants to know who all the players are. And their response is NOYB. Nothing different there. And so what? I've even tried to help in that area.

And no I don't think you are being nasty, I think you are just being yourself, just as Galen is being himself, and some people can ruffle feathers more quickly than others. And yes, that is how wars get started but we can stop being antagonized if we let ourselves, if that is what it takes.

As far as no flames? Just wait, I don't think we've seen all of this cache just yet. Might be saving the best for last, right? As in flames? As if these Exotic's don't look amazing enough already compared to the average CAC's, the flames might just blow even these out of the water. And I would bet the bank that there are a few. It just figures, right?

There were too many hurt feelings and the wrong words exchanged in the beginning between some creating a hatred that will take a long time to dissolve, if ever. So we all must come together here to try to smooth things out, right? No harsh words, only teamwork. That is how you will get your answers. It sounds to me like they are still waaaay underpriced. they belong in a museum. I think if the right person came forward, a large premium would instantly be added to the actual value of one. This heavily guarded secret is only hurting the sellers and not the buyers, right?

[spara50]

Here is Ken's post..

... The best eyes for CA that I know belong belong to Brian Estepp. Bill Tow, Charlie Hix, Alan Bassinet, Don Rios and recently departed Les Jones. I think I can speak for them in saying that they do not consider them fakes- not even suspicious....

"The best eyes" just happen to belong to 3 or 4 people that benefited the most from selling these marbles to the tune of 10's of thousands of dollars. I say follow the money for the true answer to this debate. It always comes down to that in the end.

[honeybern]

Legend

mon me

I love it!!! All the proof I need!

He thinks the civil war marbles are real.

So, I thought the tooth fairy was real 6 years ago whats your point?

All the serious CAC collectors I know (3 or 4) are convinced and willing to pay way more than me, at this point.

Is it 3 or 4?

< 6

Under big big magnification, the structure of the exotic is indistinguishable from any other, universally-accepted-to-be-genuine CAC.

WHAT?

Under big big magnification, the structure of the exotic is indistinguishable from any other, universally-accepted-to-be-genuine CAC. Do you hear me now?

I think the labor involved in faking one would be so great, any marble maker would be better off to make what he usually makes which may sell for less but wouldn't have to pass a barrage of scrutiny/sweat the pressure of having to pass off the "fake" once finished.

It's not about work........

Yes! It isn't! It's about whether or not anyone can fake a CAC and, so far, I haven't seen any succeed, including Shamrock.

I've read all these posts by naysayers that have all these reasons the CACs aren't genuine except not ONE has posted the words that can be regarded as anything other than hot air: That they know for a fact that X marble is a fake, they have proof and here it is.

Because the sellers that salt a few WV Swirls and white based Corks into their, otherwise, totally worthless lots of Peltier rainbos and baseballs, un-noteworthy catseyes new All Reds and a few Vacors don't need to invest in an exotic to sucker buyers into bidding up their listings.

His point was that no exotics have been offered in lots........ah heck...you know what he meant!

Yeah, I read at college reading level, thanks: I explained his point - WHY exotics have not been offered in lots........ah heck......you didn't know what I meant.

And whats all this about this dig in 2000 as the Genesis of exotics? They're just striped opaques, striped transparents and submarines (maybe guineas, too). Where's the mystery or controversy?

2000 dig? Who said anything about a 2000 dig? Color combo ....pattern... quantity ..no cullet backing...quality...sneaky deals....and so on.

In this very thread. I don't remember "who", but it's here - Go find it yourself! I already read everything in this discussion before I shot off my big mouth and started bagging on other people's posts. Oh yeah, I haven't bagged on anyone's post, have I? Never mind!

pics

One is a flame and the only one close to an exotic is in the 1st pic upper right. If it contains the odd color mix of mauve, light green, baby blue etc it would be. I can't tell. But, interesting in that, it would be the earliest sighting(for me) of an exotic.

You're right about the flame, second pic, second row from bottom - my bad. The pics on the color plates in Bauman's 3rd, especially the CACs, are miniscule, the largest, actual size image on either page of CACs measures less than 5/8" (15mm) across with some as small as 3/8" (10mm). Nonetheless, top left is a striped opaque as are the two below it, 3rd down, far right is a transparent stripe as are the two above it. In the second group, lower left is a striped opaque with mauve, light green, white, yellow, black and hot pink on a baby blue base, although I haven't heard the "mauve, light green, baby blue, etc..." criteria before and question the validity of such parameters. The only criteria I know of for "exotics" is that there isn't another CAC category they fit because there's too much going on.

several of which are the same, exact, CAC's I've seen and bid on(and won a few) on eBay, consistently offered at a rate of one to three, or so, a week there. Marblealan sells them on consignment pretty regularly since May that I know of - usually one or two each week but I haven't seen him use "exotic" in his listings descriptions and why would he? They seem to sell fine without the controversial moniker

Using "exotic" would not enhance a listing or marblealan would surely use it! Lots of hurt feelings under this cloud. I sent pics of mine to marblealan to get his opinion on the current market. He replied......At this time, I'm not selling any contemporaries. After a frantic reply, he said he made a mistake and sold them.lol

Sent him pics of your what? Even I admitted to making a mistake, so why shouldn't marblealan be allowed to make one? Again, what's your point? And if he sold them, who's feelings got hurt?

What about the ignored stuff .........Are the Art's marble people? Why sell to the Art's? Is the story the same for Ken and the others? Ken writes in an old thread how Bill T has one of the trusted eyes, thinks they are real and was in it early. Read Bill's posts! What do you think of VT's Thelma marble? mon

Re: "The ignored stuff: show me anything proving that the marbles in question aren't CACs. The only evidence I've ever seen, and keep seeing, confirms that they are CAC's. I have posted evidence in my previous post dispelling the post 2000 dig emergence of these marbles. Who are Art's marble people? Who's Ken and Bill and VT's Thelma and where are their pics? Maybe ask them to post here. In the meantime,I'll post the other CAC color plate from Baumann's with more exotics (published in Sept, 1999) listed under "diaper folds" and "slags and swirls".

But for now, heres some Pics from Lucht's A. Fiedler book - exotoics all: