I Have Joined Galen

[zaboo]

really?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unspeakable-Alley-Bacon-Strip-Oxdblood-Caligraphy-Swirl-Vintage-Shooter-Marble-/291088464071?pt=Marbles&hash=item43c63978c7

who came up with this stupid name? and I don't really see alley here either..

I am now with Galen with 'the name game haters'. move over Galen!

~Ernie

[sissydear]

I have heard Ron Shepherd, Nola Morgan, and Bill McCaleb use that name on an Alley Agate marble.

[SNYD]

I have heard the RARS group use the names, not this name. Just to many different family types in one name.

SNYD

[clydetul62]

That's fake bacon there. Must be of the turkey variety.

[zaboo]

"Alley Bacon Strip Oxdblood Caligraphy Swirl Vintage Shooter Marble" well it's one hell of a long name for a marble and not even spelled right. It aint turkey, it's cat food. and a shooter being 5/8"?? and I may be wrong, but I have this type marble with my heaton/cairo section. what do the experts say on the maker of this marble?

thanks,

~E.

[lstmmrbls]

certainly nothing like a Caligraphy. Just look who the seller is. That will explain a lot.

[sissydear]

I don't know that seller's name and it doesn't look Alley to me either, but the group I mentioned has named an alley, bacon . Not that long list of names Ernie gave.

[VTAndrea]

I've had a couple of that kind of marble; think I just gave one away in a group to someone. They are pretty but you have to be looking at it with a glass to see the "oxblood".

[clydetul62]

Now this is bacon.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-9-16-ALLEY-BACON-STRIP-MARBLE-PENNSBORO-MINT-/141198553953?pt=Marbles&hash=item20e016f361

[lstmmrbls]

I sold a bunch of those in Canton, but this is bacon done in bacon

[Steph]

ROFL

[bumblebee]

I think it would be fun to do the name game with common marbles that nobody wants to see more of. How about "Green Flingers" and "Coke Bottle Cats" and "Akro White Sighs" (white-based prize name corks; apologies to Akro lovers who can't get enough of those)

[Steph]

LOL

[ann]

Now this is bacon.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-9-16-ALLEY-BACON-STRIP-MARBLE-PENNSBORO-MINT-/141198553953?pt=Marbles&hash=item20e016f361

Yep. That's an Alley bacon. I mean, what else would you call it?

The crazily-named subject of this thread, however, is not, nor is it a calligrapht marble, either. It could be by any one of the companies that made those frustrating white-based marbles with transparent aqua or green glass accompanied by oxblood. Alley made some, so did Heaton. Maybe Cairo, too, Ernie. I've been told that Ravenswood made a few, and so did Champion.

Is there anyone living who can tell them apart? I have a bunch. Do I sound desperate?

[wvrons]

The first one posted is not like any original named Alley Bacon strip. Clyde posted the correct marble for a Alley Bacon strip. I kind of agree with the name thing. Maybe we should drop all the names especially when so many have the same exact name. How many Supermans are there ? Peltier,Akro,Alley,how many Jabo Superman,three,six or eight ? Most are confused over Blue Surfer or Blue Lagoon. Now we have a Dark Universe and Dark night or sky or something. Both i think almost the same marble. How about CAC Snottie,that one did fit. If it were only possible to drop every name ? Or do we only keep a select few names for a few select people. Maybe we should destroy all the common marbles that no one wants to see any more of. That would benefit children,new collectors,history,etc. But maybe it could benefit a select few with the BETTER marbles that people want to see. I do not know of any Heaton,Cairo,or Ravenswood with oxblood,none. I have had a few 100,000 of those through my hands. I see you did not include Akro in frustrating white-based marbles with transparent aqua or green glass accompained by oxblood. Is it white base marbles that frustate you or just those worthless junk WV swirls ? Many of those are colored base and some are clear base. I am living and i can tell some marbles apart. I cannot seperate all marbles,including WV swirls,Akro,Peltier,CAC,Jabo,Vacor,so called German machine made,etc.. I have never seen anyone yet who could identify every marble. But there are some people who are very good at certian ones or groups. I do not rely on Ebay to learn marbles by companies or names. I also do not believe everything that i am told or read about marbles. I found that a good amount was totally incorrect. Maybe correct when published or then current thoughts. But things change with more info,like it or not. The truth won't knock on your door,you have to work for it. Have an open mind,which is the most difficult to get past. The truth takes time,money and effort. Ask the experts,sure,there is enough here.

Have a open mind ROFL !

[sissydear]

thanks Ron. That says it.

[zaboo]

Hey Ron,

thanks for the info!! so you say that cairo heaton and ravenswood never had oxblood in them. nice to know. so is that marble an alley? as far as white based akros go, I have some I wouldn't get rid of for anything and are quite beautiful. I have collected and enjoyed W.V. swirls always. 20 years ago I was grabbing them when most didn't want them. including white based alleys. over the years things change, we need to embrace and adapt to changes.

and whats it going to take to get you out to our Seattle show? we'd treat you well! how about a free table?

~Ernie

[wvrons]

My opinion the marble is Alley. For more reasons than one. The swirl pattern is one give away. Heaton,Cairo and Ravenswood very seldom has the swirl or color ends stop with a straight across sharp ends,like they were cut off with a knife. Alley,CAC plus a few Champion do this but not many other WV swirl makers do this. It is no way any Alley Calligraphy,not a shooter,not true oxblood. I agree a lot that the listing title is wrong. It may be a honest mistake,just a guess,a opinion or intentional misleading. I am not making excuses or taking up for the seller. We all know that all the above happens on ebay every week probably every day with marbles, I do not see it ever stopping. Marble buyers need to know what they are buying. Bringing it up on any board can be positive and benefit marble people. If it is done correctly. Making a joke of the seller and or of the marble,i am not sure is the correct approach. Maybe the attention should go direct to the seller. If they are flooded with messages that the listing is wrong,maybe some will change,some may not. You currently have a blue swirl on ebay listed as a Ravenswood which i believe is a Champion. That marble has never been found at the Ravenswood river bank,in no Ravenswood original package. It has been seen in Champion packages. According to Dave he produced it at Champion during or just after the New Old Fashioned run time frame at Champion. I had a couple emails from serious Ravenswood collectors that it was not Ravenswood. I agree we need to adapt and be open to change. I also agree that we need to think about what we post for anyone in the world to see. There are people who watch all these boards and never ever post. Some people on these boards are looked upon as long time experienced marble people. People look to them for their answers to marble questions on the boards as well as books and any other web site. I think that if we are willing to put it in print for anyone to see. That we should be as accurate as possible at the time. If we are not sure or positive,maybe we should keep our fingers off the keyboard, There is enough misrepresentation already without adding more and more confusion. Sarcastic criticism post many times draws more attention than serious post. I think the same amount of effort needs directed at positive marble info. Like it or not people here and other boards are representatives of marble collecting.

I still would like to get to the Seattle show someday. I have no doubt at all that you would treat me VERY well. But what has kept me away is many of the same reasons yourself and others have not made it to the WVMCC show. I probably attend as many or more shows than most anyone here. I usually make it to 10-14 shows per year. I cannot for many reasons make every show. So i have to pick and choose ones that are more dueable with time and expense. I also cannot teach people what i have learned over 15+ years,to identify some WV swirls in one day at a show or even a week. I had resources close by,the marbles in hand,digging in the dirt then cleaning them,on and on for a lot of years. I cannot pass all that along in one day or one show. I have done several WV swirl displays and some talks on WV swirls at different shows in past years. I have one or two coming up this year. I am terriable at it. But i feel that i should share the info as i can. That is what the people who gave it to me wanted. A lot of the information is out there,but it will not come looking for you.

Ron S.

[sissydear]

Ron did a WV swirl workshop in Texas some years back. Ron, none of us are as good as you are, but you taught at least some of us to recognize a lot of WV swirls. I don't know them all, but I sure know a lot more than I did before you came. Willie Benoit has become adept at identifying them too. I understand that you have dug and handled so many that none of us could ever catch up with you. I appreciate all the IDing that you do. I agree with your above post too. Many people no longer post here because they don't like the snarkiness of many people here. I am loving Duffy's facebook marble board. It's easy to post pics and there is no belittling, no snarky comments,no marble snobbiness, etc. It's a good mix of oldsters and beginners and everyone is helpful to everybody else. It reminds me of what this board was years ago, Duffy runs a tight ship. You have to be invited to be a part of it and if you can't follow the rules, you're out. The tone of this thread before Ron came on turned me off. I was hoping Ron would drop by. Thanks Ron for all you said.

[sissydear]

One more thing: Ron you are not terrible at it. You are great at it. Just ask anybody in Texas that attended your workshop.

[zaboo]

Hey Ron, you said... ' I do not know of any Heaton,Cairo,or Ravenswood with oxblood,none.'

I had been told by a very knowledgeable collector that these were heaton. According to Popular American Marbles, page 67, they list oxblood green and white at $10-15.00.( you're listed in that book as helping with it)

in the machine made marbles, Everett Grist Big Book of marbles ,from your own collection, shows as a ravenswood, a blue and purple and white swirl.(plate 209) The marble you question in my wife's listings was sold to the consignor as a ravenswood. she also showed it to a couple different collectors prior to listing and they also said ravenswood on it.

and yes I am aware that knowledge does not come without effort. I have collected and studied marbles for awhile now...

Ernie

[wvrons]

Just as i said in my previous post. I have learned not to totally rely on what is printed or what some say. I have seen too many mistakes and errors in all printed material dealing with marbles,for me to rely on them 100%. They can be used as one source for information but just one source can cause problems. When several different sources agree then it may be correct. I have yet to see any marble book 100% correct. Many times it may not be the authors fault. Publishers and printers do not know marbles or care. They print what the author ask for but also what is best for them and what will fit the page best. Sometimes maybe leaving out the most important sentance. Sometimes as the book is being printed,new and better more accurate information can come about. Yes i was involved for many years with Mike and Susie and their books. Nothing came out in the end as originally planned. Ask Mike,Popular American Marbles was such a disappointment to all. I have never and will not recommend it to any marble collector. As for Popular American Marbles page 67. The Heaton white base,green and oxblood pictured is one of the best versions of these that i have seen from Heaton. I posted some similiar to these and other WV swirls for years and was told by all the experts that it was not true oxblood. I was hammered for years about about true oxblood. That the WV swirl companies did not do it or make oxblood on purpose. If it was close oxblood it was a mistake and just happened. A lot like similiar post or discussions on WV swirls and aventurine. So after many years of checking WV oxblood looking swirls with 10x-20x-30x loupe. I agreed that it was not the exact same as Akro oxblood. Opinions on oxblood has changed a long way since the more recent books have been published. Since more people have been collecting WV swirls. Now there seems to be many shades of reds,and even browns,that people consider oxblood. There is a wide range of what people call oxblood in Alley marbles now. I am very cautious for several years to say Alley with oxblood,unless with close friends. Becasue some older experienced collector will always challenge it. The oxblood argument has been going and will continue for some time but without me. If they say or think it is oxbood,i will agree. If they tell me it is not oxblood,i will agree. I have dug and have the similiar marbles like pictured but i will no longer say it is oxblood. If you have that color combination of 100% known Heaton and believe it is oxblood,ok thats fine.

But i am not any longer going to tell people that Heaton made marbles with oxblood. I learned when i was young that if i got my fingers smacked enough times for doing the same thing,that i was better off to stay away from it. What is oxblood,what does it look like,what companies had it,how many different types,colors,shades,on and on. For me Heaton did not have true oxblood. I have never seen a Ravenswood with what i thought was even close to oxblood. I have seen some Alleys that if someone got very very close like Akro oxblood,it may have been Alley or at Jabo. I have not and will not sell a Heaton as having oxblood for a selling point. I had very little if anything to do with the book Popular American Marbles. I did have some to do with the book Americam Machine made marbles.

I will answer the Grist book question in the next post.

[zaboo]

" My opinion the marble is Alley" then you say..."The Heaton white base, green and oxblood pictured is one of the best versions of these that i have seen from Heaton" so according to you the better book is American machine made marbles, with that in hand, please look on page, 77, under ID tips, it lists green oxblood white base, also black oxblood white base. So the bottom line here is what you yourself deem as oxblood, not what others look at it to be. Oxblood was both intentional and accidental. and the term 'oxblood' and pigeon blood are not new terms in glass. they have been around a long time before machine made marbles. LOL and different companies had different oxbloods.

and this is way OT from the original post, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.

[ann]

Oxblood was both intentional and accidental. and the term 'oxblood' and pigeon blood are not new terms in glass. they have been around a long time before machine made marbles. LOL and different companies had different oxbloods. . . . if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it just might be a duck.

I understand that there has long been a kerfluffel over oxblood -- but I think I gotta go with Zaboo here about what oxblood is or is not. I believe it's pretty much a duck.

I don't think it matters whether a company produced it deliberately or accidentally. Either way, particular mixes of colorants, minerals, metals, etc. under certain conditions (reduction or smothering atmosphere, to a greater or lesser degree, etc.) will give you what most people call oxblood.

Oxblood and pigeon blood go back through ceramics, too -- the Chinese were the first that I know of to use an oxblood glaze. Seems to me I remember it being in the early 1200s -- but I can check if anyone wants to know.

" I see you did not include Akro in frustrating white-based marbles with transparent aqua or green glass accompained by oxblood. Is it white base marbles that frustate you or just those worthless junk WV swirls ? Many of those are colored base and some are clear base. I am living and i can tell some marbles apart."

As far as those frustrating white-based marbles with aqua or green striping and oxblood go -- did I not say I have a bunch of them? I only have bunches of the marbles I like. And why should I include Akro in that class of marbles? Never seen an Akro with the color combo we're talking about. Post it if you got it.

And, I too have shown my bunch to well-known collectors. None of them pretended they could ID most of them -- but it was Dave McCullough who picked two out as being Champion, so I'm goin' with him for the time being on those.

I'd love it if you'd post a primer on how to distinguish one company's from another.

And, well, you know I can't help but say that since the majority of marble sites were not scientifically excavated, one should be cautious in drawing conclusions. Just because a particular type has never been found at a place does not categorically eliminate it Maybe it just hasn't been found YET. Or none were dumped. Or whatever.

I think EVERYBODY needs to remain open minded.

[wvrons]

The book is Everett Grist's Big Book of Marbles fourth edition page 86,plate 209. The marble in question is last row center marble. In my opinion today,it was produced by Champion. That can change with more or new evidence. As i said,they have never been found at the Ravenswood river bank. Not in any original Ravenswood package that i have seen. Which is in the hundreds or thousands. Not in any of the big wharehouse find that i have or seen from Marlow Peterson or David Chamberlian. But i have seen them in Champion bags. But Champion packaged several different companies marbles. Dave McCullogh confirmed that these and some others that people consider Ravenswoods were made while he was at Champion. Every one i have seen has a nice slick shine to it. I have yet to find one that was not mint or very very close. Super bright colors,much more than most Ravenswoods This also applies to all that Dave said were made at Champion while he was there. So i am not 100% convinced they are Ravenswood. If there is some other proof or things that place these with Ravenswood,i am always looking and listening. I can change tomorrow,just convince me.

Why it got in this book as Ravenswood ? This book as with many or all is not 100% correct. This is not the only plate that has a wrong marble in it. Plus some has changed with new and better information since it was published. The picture of this plate is the same exact one also used in the earlier third edition. All the plates with WV swirls are the same as the thiird edition. I had no control over this. Everett was in bad health and the fourth edition was put together with very much the same material from the third edition. The only thing that he insisted that i help him with for the fourth edition was the expanded Champion furnace section. He didn't have much time to make a lot of changes or new additions to the last book.

How this marble got in the Ravenswood plate. Everett had me buy and put together all the swirl marbles for the third edition. I then had to ship them to him in TN for the pictures. I put each company in seperate 35 count bubble packs. I labeled each one and put a rubber band around it. I shipped them to Everett. He called a few days later saying Ron we have a problem. He explained that he could not help it but he had to look at them. So he took the marbles out of the bubble packs. He had them ixed and could not seperate them correct. So he had to ship them back to me. I sorted them all again. This time i stapled each of the bubble packs closed. He received them and took them to KY to the publisher for pictures. While they had them they lost some of the complete bubble packs. I shipped Everrett more. He took them to KY again. He would stay there with the marbles until done. He called and said i don't know what we are going to do. The photographer and Everett had the bubble packs open on a table while taking pictures. The open bubble packs got knocked onto the floor. Once again Everett shipped the mixed marbles back to me. I sorted them again and shipped them back. He took them to KY had the pictures done. He sent me the proofs and ask me if they were correct. I went through them and they were not all correct. But the overwhelming big majority were. I could not convince Everett to redo this again,or to leave the incorrect ones out of the book. It was near publish deadline and not enough time for big changes to page layouts. So some of the plates or pictures of WV swirl marbles is not 100% correct. The same year the third edition book came out,i did post several corrections to some of the pictures. But that is not going to get to every person who ownes one of those books today. The book was not 100% in my control. This and a long list of reasons is why i have never to date published any book. One of the other reasons is no matter how the book turns out. Someone or several will always tear it down,and disagree with it. Mike Johnson has told me face to face,more than once,that he would never ever be involved in doing another marble book. I wonder why ??????? As i said early everything in the marble books is not all 100% correct. Especially as time goes by.

This is all more examples of why i am slowing down identifing marbles. I still do what i can for some but i am not doing it like i once did. My future plans are to even slow down more at it. I am tired of trying to explain every little detail why i give my opinion that a marble was produced by a certian company. Give me yours why do you think or what is your evidence or reason to believe it is a Ravenswood or whatever ? We may not agree,but there is nothing wrong with that. That is what will bring more actual facts or proof out sooner or later. I have been wrong many times before and will be again. I was the fourth person down the line to identify(all in agreement)what i considered a Vacor at a Sistersville show for a friend who bought it as a rare Peltier. He ask for and received a refund. But i caught a lot of bad comments over it. A identification that i was the fourth person to do the same. But i was the one who received or had the not so good negative comments directed at me. If someone ask me for a identification in the future and i don't give a answer. It may be that i don't want my fingers smacked again.

Now that i have been the better part of two days,explaining why i say or how some things happen. I have other things that have to be done.