Have We Figured Out Who Made These?

[hdesousa]

(Not mine)

[lstmmrbls]

smooth cutoffs with some having tiny straight indentations, Or rough with the semi-curved cut off

[hdesousa]

Don't know. Not mine. I'll try to find out, but it may take a while.

What's the significance of "smooth cutoffs with some having tiny straight indentations, Or rough with the semi-curved cut off"?

[1Alleynut]

At First glance the Red and whites would say American Agates, but then the Japanese Pinch pontil group would jump up and say wait a minute,---- Some look like MF while others say Cac, so who did make them?? one heck of a box set though, so where are the experts on these early glass jewels, DB.

[ann]

I thought I had a pretty good handle on the pontils of this type - - - "pinpoint," short straight, & long straight <probably German. Longish propeller-curved < the "Canadian" type. Crinkly/spidery < Japanese, and so forth. Then Winnie got her box and said there were a bunch of types in that one box. No consistency in terms of pontils. So now I don't know what to think. But I have stopped sobbing helplessly. So that's a good sign.

[lstmmrbls]

Ann, none of the "Canadian" types I have, have a long curved cut off. most are smooth with a few having short small indentations. I have always bought any handgathered types I can find and the boxes I have held seen or have had of Made in Japan types have a preponderance of rough spider web type cut offs. The nicer glass smoother or no cutoff types I have accumulated never seem to be in a marked box. I have always assumed that Germany went through most of the same marble making processes we did which would have involved numerous hand gathered machine rounded marbles. Just makes sense to me. And I have had a few solitaire boards that had hand gathered slags that to me were obviously not American made and were made in Germany. I would guess that the box posted has rough cut offs and are probably Japanese made????

[winnie]

I also think Japanese.

It's a pity Hansel that you can not study the cut-off's,it would not surprise me if they differ from each other,some are probably completely smooth (no noticeable cut-off's.

Thats why I draw no conclusion at the differences in cut-off marks of these transitional type's.

It's a very nice box!!

[ann]

. . . a preponderance of rough spider web type cut offs . . .

I also found that ^^^^ to be true when I was actively looking for this type.

I still pick up one of these HG types every now and then. But knowing now that the type of cut-off or shear mark you get depends in part on the temperature of the glass at the instant it's cut, I'm not sure what else they can tell us.

Fall-back position: looking more closely at the glass . . .

[winnie]

Ann,I think it's not only the temperature of the glass that cause the rough spidery cut-off's,but also the blades themselves,they may be not sharp but dull or old.

I see those rough cut-off's on marbles other than transitionals aswell.

Yes I think looking more closely at the glass and the pattern.

[hdesousa]

smooth cutoffs with some having tiny straight indentations, Or rough with the semi-curved cut off

Yes to "smooth cutoffs with some having tiny straight indentations".

[Road Dog]

What folks refer to as Canadian types as most of them found seem to be from Canada. I have quite a few of these. They are very well made and the style is unmistakable.

[BobBlock]

I'm pretty sure these are all made in Japan

[BobBlock]

I'd still like to see documented evidence of a Canadian manufacturer

[1DanS]

I would agree with Japan, possibly Germany. And IMHO these are not transitionals.

thanks

[Road Dog]

Japan marbles I would think would have more creases and various deformation due to inadequate glass temps.

[hdesousa]

Japan marbles I would think would have more creases and various deformation due to inadequate glass temps.

Agreed.

Marbles from packaging which is marked "Made in Japan" are very different.

These marbles have pontils which resemble the marbles in this post.

http://marbleconnection.com/topic/18714-odd-akros/

Bob, what is the reason you say

"I'm pretty sure these are all made in Japan"? (post #12 above)

[hdesousa]

The description below, by Roger Browse and supplied by Winnie in a previous posting, gives a through description of various pontils:

pinch, crease, line, pin and regular.

The marbles in the box in the first post in this topic have crease pontils.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Transitional Cutoffs

Here is my understanding of the different types of pontils (cutoff marks) that are found on opaque-white/red transitionals. I have included five distinct types. There are other types of transitionals, such as “melted pontil”, and “ground-pontil” which, as I understand it, do not appear in the opaque-white/red version, and so they are excluded from this categorization. Just to keep it simple, I’m not going to say too much about location of origin, date, and possible connections among these marbles. This is primarily about visual distinctions among the different types, as I believe that is essential in understanding and categorizing marbles. The following table of images has 5 columns. Each column depicts a different type, as labeled, and each has six examples. (I hope this sizes properly for your screen properties)

CLICK ON ANY IMAGE BELOW TO SEE A 4-VIEW VERSION

PINCH Curved with messy spidering

CREASE Long, straight, thin, ends curved

LINE short,straight indented PIN pin-head size indentation REGULAR snipped offlike handmades

(marble pics below did not stay in their respective columns when copied. Go to the link provided)

The table of images emphasizes the nature of the pontil (or cutoff mark), but with the help of the larger images, you probably can infer some of the surface pattern characteristics which also (usually) distinguish these different types. Each of these 5 types has a distinct set of color combinations and sizes in which they are found. Beyond the color, there is also clear variation (with overlap) in the nature of the glass used. These additional differences strongly suggest that each of these types of marbles was made by a different maufacturer, or at a distinctly different period if by the same manufacturer. There are many hybrid variations of these marbles, which I have not included. The images in the table were selected for their ability to portray the cutoff mark (pontil), and I tried to use intersting examples. The marbles in the images range in size from 9/16” to 1.25” diameter, and are scaled for better comparison. The “pinch pontil” (column 1) is the most distinctive type, and they are the type (and only type) found in boxes marked “MADE IN JAPAN”. There are no clues to the origins of the other types other than “line-pontils” have been found as complete early Solitaire Sets from Britain. All the two-color (non-white) opaque ones that I have seen are “crease-pontils”. The marbles found along with each type of transitional suggest that “pinch-pontils” were as late as the 1950’s, but the other four types are considerably earlier. Both “pinch-pontils” and “crease-pontils” appear to have been also produced in machine-made patch versions.

http://members.kingston.net/browse/transpics/trans2.html

[lstmmrbls]

Dan why do you say they are not transitional. They are definitely hand gathered and machine rounded IMO.

Bob, the best and only evidence I have ever seen on a Canadian manufacturer is a note Sellers Peltier wrote to himself that says, Check on the Canadian manufacturer. I would really be happy to see actual evidence of a Canadian manufacturer, but at this point in time we have no evidence other than they are almost all found in Canada and thats not much.

[Steph]

"Check on the Canadian manufacturer."

???!!! ??? !!! ??? !!!!!

[hdesousa]

a note Sellers Peltier wrote to himself that says, Check on the Canadian manufacturer.

As Steph says,

???!!! ??? !!! ??? !!!!!

[orbboy]

While I was doing the southern Ontario hunt I would ask all the old boys/girls if they had any info on marble makers in the area. The three places that came up were Georgetown, Ancaster and somewhere in the Owen Sound/ Wiarton area. With the Owen Sound/ Wiarton one coming from a few different people. I was never able to find anything about any of them but they might be a start for some down deep google search.

[lstmmrbls]

Steph and Hansel, That is exactly what I thought to myself when I read it, wish I remembered more.

[1DanS]

"Dan why do you say they are not transitional. They are definitely hand gathered and machine rounded IMO."

I just have a theory about these types of marbles, however I have no proof nor evidence to back up my thinking.

thanks.

[Steph]

While I was doing the southern Ontario hunt I would ask all the old boys/girls if they had any info on marble makers in the area. The three places that came up were Georgetown, Ancaster and somewhere in the Owen Sound/ Wiarton area. With the Owen Sound/ Wiarton one coming from a few different people. I was never able to find anything about any of them but they might be a start for some down deep google search.

Thanks. I wish I knew more about how to search anything other than the U.S. But glad to have keywords in any case.

First thing for me will be to pull up an atlas. I am shamefully ignorant of geography.

[hdesousa]

Steph and Hansel, That is exactly what I thought to myself when I read it, wish I remembered more.

Galen,

You said, in post #18, "the best and only evidence I have ever seen on a Canadian manufacturer is a note Sellers Peltier wrote to himself that says, Check on the Canadian manufacturer."

Where did you hear of, or see, that note that Sellers Peltier wrote to himself?

Hansel