ID help please - CAC Cyclone/Cobra or fake?

[Noodleloaf]

14 hours ago, I'llhavethat1 said:

I still think it's an interesting marble.  Curious if you'd had anybody look at it in these last few years?  

No - I'm sure in-hand it would be an easy call but I haven't been to any shows and there aren't any people nearby I could take it to.  Anyone want to send me a cyclone I could use to compare? 😆

7 hours ago, schmoozer said:

Would Morphy auction a cyclone in a group of mibs? That seems odd to me.

Agree - I had a similar thought when I bought the lot.  But then again, I'm not sure why they would include a dinged up Vacor with a 4mm moon either... 

 

[cheese]

Very similar to a sunflower in color, but there is white, and there are small bubbles. You can look at a Vacor sunflower and say, "yep, that's a Vacor", even if you've never seen the type, because it looks so much like a Vacor. This doesn't wave the Vacor flag for me.

[akroorka]

The OP, Noodleloaf is a Vacor “Sunflower”. The more that I see your images, the more that I am convinced of it---I have no doubts whatsoever.
You put up a great argument and there has been great discussion regarding this one.
We all have to learn more about Vacor Marbles—no doubt about it. 
The Vacor webpage has given us all that we would desire of any company—ID wise. They show the best and some not too good as well.

I am going by the Morphey Auction page alone here. I have identified five Vacors. In the following image.
From left to right—the circled ones
“Twister”
“Sunflower”
“Scorpion”
“Bumblebee”
“Yellow Jacket”
Yours is not a CAC—plain and simple, just a nice Vacor “Sunflower”, great marbles in their own right—just not a CAC.
Marble—On!!
 

[Noodleloaf]

9 minutes ago, akroorka said:

You put up a great argument and there has been great discussion regarding this one.
We all have to learn more about Vacor Marbles—no doubt about it. 

I'm glad to have been able to post one that has drawn so much attention and grateful for all the feedback and the debate.  I may even post new pics as I have improved my picture skills since then.

Years ago - like many bug-bitten collectors - I did let my hopes of finding a rare marble bias my ability to see facts clearly.  I don't think I'm alone in that regard.  But I don't often make that mistake today, and I never actually argued for CA at all.  I just didn't want to put a possible cyclone (which I have never seen in person to compare) in with moderns.  It seemed to me that there is so much variation across years of marble production that a small number of vintage look like moderns and a small number of moderns look like vintage and only a well-trained eye would not be fooled.

You are correct about the Scorpion - that was the one Vacor in the bunch I mentioned.  At least it was a nice mint one.  The other three you circled have details that you can't see without better pics that actually make id pretty certain:  Killer CA (flames and all!), Pelt Bee, and a nice Green AV Vitro. 

Did Vacor intentionally use the same color scheme in its marbles as early makers?  It sure seems like it and can be pretty frustrating, though most are easily distinguishable in-hand.  You're also so correct in the value of studying Vacor types (and for me I gotta learn more JABO too)

From an academic standpoint this is a great discussion!

 

   

[I'llhavethat1]

1 hour ago, akroorka said:

The OP, Noodleloaf is a Vacor “Sunflower”. The more that I see your images, the more that I am convinced of it---I have no doubts whatsoever.
You put up a great argument and there has been great discussion regarding this one.
We all have to learn more about Vacor Marbles—no doubt about it. 
The Vacor webpage has given us all that we would desire of any company—ID wise. They show the best and some not too good as well.

I am going by the Morphey Auction page alone here. I have identified five Vacors. In the following image.
From left to right—the circled ones
“Twister”
“Sunflower”
“Scorpion”
“Bumblebee”
“Yellow Jacket”
Yours is not a CAC—plain and simple, just a nice Vacor “Sunflower”, great marbles in their own right—just not a CAC.
Marble—On!!
 

 

Yeah, I'd respectfully disagree  (that those pointed out are Vacor, or that the OP is Vacor).  But they are not mine, nor do I have the option of studying them in hand (and admittedly the experience some of you do).  But that's what I like about this board. 

[Noodleloaf]

I should've posted new pics sooner - much more detail can be seen in these as I'm using a focus-stacked macro to take.  I didn't have time to get exact lighting - the orange appears a little darker than in-hand but I think the detail of the swirls may be the key?  Also 2 further-back pics - sometimes close-up makes it harder to get the feel.

[akroorka]

6 minutes ago, Noodleloaf said:

I should've posted new pics sooner

I will stand by my assessment.
We all want what is not—.
Great discussion!
I just love this stuff!!! Just love it!
Research and research some more---then do it again and again---Just do not convince yourself of something that it is not, without it, the research.

I wish that it was a CAC---really I do.

Enuff said from little old me.
Marble—On!!
 

[Noodleloaf]

A few last random thoughts and then I've exhausted my questions.

Do you think someone found a Sunflower and chipped it up and polished the surface to make it look old (or maybe to get rid of orange-peel)?  

The colors are a dead-match for the Sunflower from what I can see, but did CA ever use that same combo?

Do we have examples of Sunflower with: fourth color (white) and/or unconnected mostly parallel stretched strands that do a "c" pattern but twist around the axis, and do either CA or Vacor match with the stretchy-globby-ness in the pics?

 

[Ric]

Just a thought . . .  I am pretty sure I have seen Vacor Serpents polished in an attempt to make them look more like Peltier Supermen, or at least to bring Peltier closer to the realm of possibility.

[cheese]

Sure is a tough one. The colors seem spot on but ?? The Vacors normally have a stream structure of two, three ribbons evenly spaced around the stream that stay pretty constant (not breaking and starting back up) from one end to the other, somewhat wirepull style. This one in the OP has way more than that and they start/stop in different places instead of at the beginning and end of the stream. You can see through the colors in the Vacor but the OP looks very opaque in the colors. When zoomed in, I see streams of fine bubbles following the flow of the glass. Not usually seen on Vacors, they are usually very clear with a few clear bubbles here and there but not tiny fizz trails.

I only see the scorpion looking one being another possible Vacor in the group. Who knows, maybe this is just a messed up chipped Vacor. Is there any sign of orange peel? Maybe in hand it would be obvious. Loo at these cobras. Different looking but same colors, plus that white. The fizzy bubbles. The start-stop of the colors instead of continuous flow. It's enough to want to keep studying and hold the marbles out of the junk jar IMO.

And for the best match, this one: 

[Fire1981]

So…..? Atmosphere is out 🔥

RAR

[cheese]

I don't know enough about atmospheres to say. 

I'm not saying the OP is or isn't anything, just that I think it deserves a harder look before going to the vacor jar. Trying to point out things that might result in more thought and a stronger ID in the end, one way or the other.

[akroorka]

14 hours ago, Fire1981 said:

So…..? Atmosphere is out 🔥

 

Too small Fire.

The Atmos start at around one inch, the ones that were sold in nets at ToysRus.

Marble--On!!

[Fire1981]

Thanx Art 🔥

RAR

[cheese]

Another I just ran across today coincidentally. The orange and structure looks familiar. It's being shown as a CAC cobra.

 

[Nantucketdink]

Does anybody reading this have a decent sized group of 5:8” sunflowers to share a pic of.  Not sure if multiple runs of the 5/8” were made, but somebody must have a couple hundred to share a pic of.  That would be helpful in ruling them out.

[Nantucketdink]

Looking at the billesentete site and there is one including some white in the very first pic of them.  Just sharing info…I do not know who made this marble.

[et cetera]

An in-hand examination type for sure, but that purplish tinge to the 'brown' and the brash chrome yellow sure look Vacor to me FWIW.

[rockgardenplants]

On 6/22/2023 at 2:58 PM, akroorka said:

We all have to learn more about Vacor Marbles—no doubt about it. 

lol... so very true!

[Jeff54]

On 6/22/2023 at 7:49 PM, cheese said:

Sure is a tough one. The colors seem spot on but ?? The Vacors normally have a stream structure of two, three ribbons evenly spaced around the stream that stay pretty constant (not breaking and starting back up) from one end to the other, somewhat wirepull style. This one in the OP has way more than that and they start/stop in different places instead of at the beginning and end of the stream. You can see through the colors in the Vacor but the OP looks very opaque in the colors. When zoomed in, I see streams of fine bubbles following the flow of the glass. Not usually seen on Vacors, they are usually very clear with a few clear bubbles here and there but not tiny fizz trails.

I only see the scorpion looking one being another possible Vacor in the group. Who knows, maybe this is just a messed up chipped Vacor. Is there any sign of orange peel? Maybe in hand it would be obvious. Loo at these cobras. Different looking but same colors, plus that white. The fizzy bubbles. The start-stop of the colors instead of continuous flow. It's enough to want to keep studying and hold the marbles out of the junk jar IMO.

And for the best match, this one: 

Tiny surface bubbles in/on this is what a reheated marble looks like

[cheese]

I agree, good catch, that one is reworked.

[Jeff54]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:49 AM, et cetera said:

An in-hand examination type for sure, but that purplish tinge to the 'brown' and the brash chrome yellow sure look Vacor to me FWIW.

Oddly enough I never noticed that the only Vacor Atmosphere I have is practically identical to the colors in a CAC cobra/cyclone that's yellow and violet in those I posted in this thread earlier.

I am still convinced that the topic is a Vacor Sunflower. Yet, interestingly, I can't take a photo, but My H-G Vacor Atmos yellow reacts in UV light as a bright orange and so does the yellow inside these dug-up CAC half-pieces. Top left, top right and bottom center; all of the yellow in these react the same as the Vacor  Atmosphere I have.: