Speed Racer Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 This alley mib has flames similar to a CAC and I was wondering if there has been any discussion about the marble machines being similar, or if Alley got the Christensen machines, or just why they can come out the same so often. Maybe my question should be "What makes a flaming mib?" Thanks everyone for your thoughts on this one. BBird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Alley did his own design and blueprints for his machines. They were made at local machine shops in Pennsboro and St.Marys WV. He made flames at Ravenswood,Pennsboro and St.Marys. I am not sure about Sistersville. The biggest number of Alley flames were made at Pennsboro. Champion,Ravenswood,and even Jabo makes flames,just not the numbers that Alley did. I have heard some ideas of what makes the fames but nothing 100%. If they could make flames continueous like corkscrews,i am sure there would have been lots more. I know Jabo would make more. Maybe L.E. Alley did know what to do to produce flames steady? Maybe we will get some more ideas,opinions or facts of what makes flames? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 When a fine glass stream piles up in a circular motion flames often result. I actually have small Alley marbles that the stream still shows as the marbles did not get rounded well on the machine. They are from a game. Here you go. Many many flames were in the mix. Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kokoken Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 I am not so sure about the fine streams making the flame pattern. I mean were there 12 different streams that produced a 12 tip flame ? Do you think molten glass could flow thru a really thin nozzle ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steph Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Galen recently posted a pic of a flame and a transparent swirl side by side, where the action visible in the transparent swirl was like a see-through explanation of how the flame pattern got to be the way it was. Thought that was pretty darn awesome. Seems like the laws of physics and fluid flow might explain why some marbles from different companies look alike despite independently developed machinery. I'd be interested in learning more about how the glass streaming worked. How the nozzles and such were used, how the glass got from the vat to little ball we call a marble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 One fine stream piles up in 12 circles to make 12 flames. Then spills over to make the other patterns. I have some clear ones that show axactly how it happens. It is the pancake syrup type deal. Let a fine stream of syrup come out and it will start making circular patterns all by its self.The finer the stream the more likely the flames. And yes a 12 tip flame is 12 circles of glass as the one fine stream piles up. The stream actually flattens out as it piles up so the edge of the flattened stream is what one sees. Look at these. Many multi flames from the same box of Alleys. And there are also this color that show the fine little stream piling up. I also forgot to mention these marbles are about 7/16". That shows how fine the stream really was. That little blue one is under 3/8" Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kokoken Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 You may be absolutely correct. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 I have heard about this fine stream and the pile up before from a couple others. If so the makers were sure to notice this and know what caused the flames. Why did they not make many more flames ? Maybe because it would be too slow and not enough marbles per hour ??? I have seen flames come off the rollers at Jabo and never noticed any problem with the stream,and the operator was not having any problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucks_mibs Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Howcome no one has mentioned the patterns seen on cullet......I have seen large chunks of cullet that have the flame pattern already in the glass....Some of them look like they could have purposely "layered" glass in the vat (or gob feeder) before injecting the glass.....Could some of the more "intricate" ones have been made this way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Much cullet is a result of a stream piling up into a big glob. It can create some neat flaming patterns. Even a pile of melted marbles will make flames at times. Not saying flames cant form in cullet by different means. I am just saying it is real easy to see one continuous stream that has piled up in the transparent flames. So I am assuming that is how the opaques form also. I have seen some neat Jabo flames but they do not usually appear like Alley or CAC flames IMHO. I also have many opaque CAC and Alley flames that you can follow the stream around and around as it has piled up in that marble. The stream usually has flowed off to form the other loops and swirls on the marble. Many alley flames exibit almost the exact same loops and folds on different flamed marbles. I do think it was random but had much to do with the distance the stream fell and the size of the stream. I wasn't there so this is all just my opinion after many many hours of studying these lovely flames Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I LOVE MARBLES Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Though nobody knows for sure, I believe Galen is correct about the way these flame marbles were created. You know Mr. Alley started working as a gathering boy for Akro Agate in 1915. I think Mr. Fiedler worked for Akro at about the same time, just pointing out that those two men had great knowledge about making machinemade marbles. I've heard that a good flame comes up random 1 in 10,000 on a swirl machine. It seem to me that Mr. Alley knew how to make the flame pattern come up more often than that. Seems to me that Mr. Fiedler had the flame marbles down to a fine art, because CAC original boxes have been found filled with flame marbles, so Mr. Fiedler could and did make flame marbles at will, on purpose. It just makes sense that a fine feed is the way these marbles were made. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucks_mibs Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Does anyone know how much glass was used for a particular run?....The reason I'm asking is because Large chunks of cullet....(some cases 45 pounds) have been sold on eBay on a regular basis (do a search for "cullet" under marbles). Some of these chunks of cullet already have the glass mixed and in some cases the flame pattern already in the glass....I really don't know the whole process by which the marbles were made, but you could figure that if some of the flames were done intentionally, perhaps the glass was placed in the vat in layers to give the flame effect reminiscent of the large pieces of cullet found. Here are some pics of cullet being sold on eBay right now. The first one being the 45lbs specimen......I understand that tanks as well as the nozzles were cleaned to put different colors in between runs and that glass was discarded, but look at the layers of glass in that chunk.....why would they waste that much glass..... I have a theory that perhaps the glass was layered like this on purpose before it reached the nozzles to make flames and other intricate designs.......Anyone care to elaborate?? PS- This seller is from Arkansas and appears to have a lot of Large Cullet pieces that favor Glass used by WVS companies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sissydear Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 In your first cullet picture the white looks like milkglass. I've been told by Hamon family members that milkglass is the glassworkers scrubbing pad. They used it to stick to other glass when cleaning out their tanks. I have also been at Jabo when mistakes were made, the rollers were pulled away from the feeders dropping the glass onto the rollers. The molten glass fell onto the floor in large piles and was discarded when cooled enough. It had the circles (flames) in it just falling onto the floor. That may account for large pieces of "cullet" being buried with the other stuff considered trash. Edna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoop Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 why would they waste that much glass? I'm only guessing.... But, it seems that time and energy (both in fuel and manpower) during production is far more expensive than the raw glass..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FIRE81 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 GALEN................................ UH.................Pelt K&M up there at 1:00 - 12:00........????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'llhavethat1 Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 A single stream would explain why some European flames look similar to wirepulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvrons Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 One note, L.E. Alley NEVER worked at Akro as a gather boy or any other position,any time. Another mistake in the books from the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Does anyone know how much glass was used for a particular run?....The reason I'm asking is because Large chunks of cullet....(some cases 45 pounds) have been sold on eBay on a regular basis (do a search for "cullet" under marbles). Some of these chunks of cullet already have the glass mixed and in some cases the flame pattern already in the glass....I really don't know the whole process by which the marbles were made, but you could figure that if some of the flames were done intentionally, perhaps the glass was placed in the vat in layers to give the flame effect reminiscent of the large pieces of cullet found. Here are some pics of cullet being sold on eBay right now. The first one being the 45lbs specimen......I understand that tanks as well as the nozzles were cleaned to put different colors in between runs and that glass was discarded, but look at the layers of glass in that chunk.....why would they waste that much glass.....I have a theory that perhaps the glass was layered like this on purpose before it reached the nozzles to make flames and other intricate designs.......Anyone care to elaborate?? PS- This seller is from Arkansas and appears to have a lot of Large Cullet pieces that favor Glass used by WVS companies The cullet you show in the pics appears to have come from the factory breaking down a furnace/pot and rebuilding it. That would also easily explain large, heavy pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lstmmrbls Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Actually it was a Champion New Old fashioned Rick. Good eye though!! Peace,Galen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sissydear Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 I've been to a couple of places in Arkansas that sell cullet. One of them tried to tell me it was dug in Arkansas from the remains of an old glass factory. In actuality, they were buying it by the truck load from Fenton and selling it. The places I'm talking about have it outside of rock and mineral shops and you can buy it by the pound. Edna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I LOVE MARBLES Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 One note, L.E. Alley NEVER worked at Akro as a gather boy or any other position,any time. Another mistake in the books from the past. Damnit Ron, now it's real cold here in Spokane, guess I'll have to burn those worthless rags known as marble books/price guides! LOL!!! Really though think I read that tidbit bout Alley working as a gathering boy in Greengurgs, that I bought from Bertram at a Seattle show in 1996. Bert was pissed because he wanted $50. and I only gave him $40. for it! What a great waste of time reading and commiting to memory all that crap! Hi Ron, do you remember me emailing you 9 or so years ago to ask about your book? What happened with that anyway? Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now