Alley With Gold Lutz

[Steph]

I put this one in the WV swirl thread but it really deserves a special mention. Machine-made with lutz. Date estimate: 1930-31. Photo compliments of Ron. This marble was found at the Sistersville WV, Lawrence Glass Novelty Company location.

(click to enlarge)

I think it might only be half a marble but sssshhhh, pretend not to notice. :-)

[Alan]

Speculation: I would think the material noted as "lutz" is more likely un-dissolved glass colorant - especially given the appearance of the flakes, their shape and distribution.

[lstmmrbls]

I would agree. Or a contaminant of some type. I have heard brass filled grease(from worn bushings) can cause some strange effects. What do most consider Gold Lutz?

[Steph]

Most? I cannot say.

Ron said it is not copper. He said it looks and reflects as gold.

[lstmmrbls]

It is my understanding gold does not form crystals in glass. I do know gold crystals are extremely rare. Chrome and copper make most of the Aventurine glasses. I have seen some articles stating gold was added to make lutz but those articles appeared to be amateurish speculation. Maybe some of our glass makers know???? The gold lutz(Aventurine) glass rods sold are made from copper.

[FISHSLAYERMARRBLEGRIFF]

I wonder if there is a possibilaty that some of the"contaminates",or lutz,was a result from the workers doing maintinance on the machines,while they were running.

Another guess would be,that there was something in the stream,coming out of the tank(based on the "lutz",kind od following the pattern.)

Maybe put those two thought together?

[Speed Racer]

Maybe somebody accidently lost their gold wedding ring into the tank. Isn't hot glass a perfect smelting environment?

Please, somebody tell me that they always wore gloves around that kind of heat.

[Ima_ddicted]

Maybe somebody accidently lost their gold wedding ring into the tank. Isn't hot glass a perfect smelting environment?

Please, somebody tell me that they always wore gloves around that kind of heat.

If they always wore gloves, how would they lose their gold wedding ring?

[orbboy]

My opinion is it's tank gunk as well. Common sense says that if the combined knowledge base of the board (add the lurkers and I bet it is over a couple of centuries) have not seen one like this before then there is a great chance they do not exist. It would take a whole pile from the dig to convince me. Not just a single example. Were there more dug like this one? If not that speaks volumes. If there were that might change my opinion.

But of course a couple of centuries of marble smarts means diddly-squat I have been informed. This board still sucks apparently.

[wvrons]

I never said it was actual gold. It looks like what most call gold lutz. For me,it is closer to gold color than common copper. It is probably copper. Some descriptions for lutz is,goldstone,or finely ground copper,that looks and reflects like gold in glass. This to me looks even more gold color than much of the so called gold lutz used at Jabo the last couple years. I agree that it looks to me,like it came from inside the tank. The gold colored material follows the swirl stripe pattern. This is the first Alley white/red one that i have seen,as of today. But,i will be looking and i hope others do also.

[Speed Racer]

This thread has been up for exactly one day. I think we need more time for everyone to weigh in. I know I suck when it comes to some of this stuff, but the board as a whole is only as good as its strongest link. Then again, two heads are always better than one.

My answer was purely based on the info about it 'looking and reflecting' like real gold. I have to agree that it is likely what Galen and Alan and Griff suggested now that I have heard from Ron.

Thanks, Roger

Edited June 13, 2010 by Speed Racer

[lstmmrbls]

There are actually a variety of crystalline shapes of copper that may form in glass.

[Speed Racer]

If they always wore gloves, how would they lose their gold wedding ring?

Exactly, which is why it is most likely the 'gunk' theory.

[Steph]

I was vaguely hoping it was the kind of gold which has been used to make red glass.

Keyword "vaguely". I've only heard of the gold glass. Don't know how or when it was made or what form the gold looked like going in to the mix. I guess it seems far-fetched for gold to be used during the depression to make kids' toys.

[Alan]

I was vaguely hoping it was the kind of gold which has been used to make red glass.

Keyword "vaguely". I've only heard of the gold glass. Don't know how or when it was made or what form the gold looked like going in to the mix. I guess it seems far-fetched for gold to be used during the depression to make kids' toys.

I believe that there are two differences that apply to this marble:

- I believe that the use of gold chloride in ancient times was to make dark red ruby glass. This marble is a very different color than ruby glass

- During the times of American machine made marble manufacture - I believe that all formulations of red glass used selenium as the active colorant - not gold.

[wvrons]

Yes,selenium is in recipes of Mr.Alley. We are going to get to the bottom of this yet. Is this reaction very rare,or why has it not occurred in more machine made marbles ? Would it only be in one marble ?

[Ric]

It looks most like a precipitate to me. Like the mix in that striping pot was too concentrated with this stuff (what ever it is) and it precipitated out (maybe as the glass cooled) - sorta like making rock candy from a saturated sugar solution. FWIW.

[bigjohn691500]

its a well known fact that cranberry glass was made with real gold but was dissolved in acid first,link and very expensive to make, cant see a marble company doing that on "this" type of mib, but if they used cullet, it is possible for the glitter of gold to make its way in the mix, , unless there are more examples out there of this type ide say it was an oops and most or any of the reasons you guys/gals mentioned is possible,,, bj

[lstmmrbls]

It should maybe also be noted that if they hadn't used some stuff they called Gold lutz during the recent Jabo runs this would have simply been called aventurine. Which is actually what get your lutz right herethe gold lutz usually is.

[Ric]

Weren't the old handmade marbles called "lutz" well before JABO was in existence? Any idea how that started? Were they ever referred to as aventurine?

[Steph]

I don't remember the name lutz coming up in any marble ads I've seen. My general impression was that it was relatively recent though older than Jabo! lol

I know someone who has seen a lot more ads than I have, and translated some from German. I'll send him a note to ask.

edit: Klondike is one of the names they used to use for lutz.

edit 2: Baumann gives 1968 as the first known time the word lutz was used to describe marbles.

[Ric]

I think we're diverging from the topic a bit, but I'm thinking that the original "lutz" marbles may have come from the Lutz part of Germany. Maybe they used the gold-looking stuff a lot there, and over time, any marble that had that gold-looking stuff was referred to as a lutz, since I've never heard anyone refer to a marble that didn't have the gold-looking stuff as a lutz.

[Steph]

"I think we're diverging from the topic a bit"

lol, yeah I guess we are.

If you give me a minute, I could try to tie it into the original topic. ;-) But the truth is I think it's an interesting question in its own right.

The story I've heard is that lutz glass was named after a glassmaker named Nicolas Lutz who made it in the late 1800's. Don't know if that was true. I remember some dispute somewhere. But I can't remember the details.

Sue?

p.s. started a new topic. I don't mind hijacking my own thread (lol) but don't want to hijack Ron's marble. :-)

[ann]

That's an interesting marble, for sure -- the only Alley "lutz" marbles I've seen were with green or green and blue. Those are rare, but if this one is the only one Ron has seen -- wow!

Ron, have you seen any (besides this one) with colors other than green or/and blue?

[JimLin]

What is the base color of Ron's marble, Could it be transparent red with white swirls and the "LUTZ" swirl. The reason I am asking is I have a marble just like Ron's only with a different base color. Mine is a transparent olive color with white swirls and the "LUTZ" swirl. These marbles seem well crafted and could have been a short run. I will post pictures in the AM. If anybody has some of these marbles please post pictures. Ron's is the only other one now that I have seen. Jim